Jacob Levy updated

[Wyatt Earp]

Tell me can you name any other suspect that is circumstantially as good as Jacob?

tji, are you familiar with William Bury? He 1) murdered a woman, 2) performed abdominal and genital mutilations with a knife on a woman, 3) possessed mysterious cheap rings that could have come from Chapman (Tumblety is not the only major suspect with "mystery rings"), 4) very possibly chalked messages at his residence that could tie him to the Goulston Street graffito, 5) matches well some of the witness descriptions, including those of seemingly reliable women Long and Maxwell, and 6) can be associated with relevant suspect profiles. Further, the murders began after he arrived in the area and ceased after he left. Do you think that the circumstantial case for Levy is as good as that?

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=tji;216867]Hi Abby

I disagree Abby he is tied to the area, he is tied to the case by Joseph Levy, whether you believe Joseph knew anything or not, he is tied by having some knife skills, etc.
Can we prove any of this, no not yet, but then if we could we would say he was Jack to just a strong contender. Tell me can you name any other suspect that is circumstantially as good as Jacob?

Caroline died May 1888 and we have to assume old age as she would have been round about 69.

We have no reason to believe he killed Abraham in my opinion as according to the reports he was sent up to check on Abraham when he hadn't come downstairs.

Hi Fish

Yes I do agree we allow our prejudices of what we believe he should be like to cloud our vision, I for one would be amazed if Jack turned out to be a sane calculating killer but we have to allow for that, humans are nothing if not unpredictable!



Thanks Fish, coming from yourself that is indeed a compliment (although I reallly can't take all the credit, it was definitely a group effort)

Tracy

Hi Tracy
Thanks for the response.

I disagree Abby he is tied to the area, he is tied to the case by Joseph Levy, whether you believe Joseph knew anything or not, he is tied by having some knife skills, etc.

IMHO none of these things factually "tie him to the case". The closest might be being the couson of Joseph Levy, but being related to a witness does not tie someone to a case.

Tell me can you name any other suspect that is circumstantially as good as Jacob?

I didn't really want to go down this road but since you asked:
Kosminski
Tumblety
James Kelly
Bury
Blotchy
Chapman
Le Grand
Piggot
Puckridge
Cutbush.....and so on.

And that would just be for starter, i have not even included people who are actually tied to the case as witnesses- like lechmere, Hutch etc.

The main difference between these folks and jacob levy is that they were actually suspects or at least persons of interest.

One of the main factors that you seem to place on the "suspecthood" of Levy is the crazy issue. I dont-but that just me because i dont think JtR was schizo or had any kind of mental illness that manifested itself outwardly in his daily life. Again just my speculation.

Another question I ask you is what put you on the path to researching jacob levy as a suspect?? Did you set out looking for all institutionalized (insane)men or just Jews?

And i will be very frank in giving you the motivation for this question. Andersons "definitely ascertained fact" seems to have set off a hundred years of people looking for crazy jews as suspects from kosminski to David Cohen to now Jacob Levy. And honestly that bugs me a bit.

Also, Not sure if it is accurate that you call jacob levy "a"suspect-he may be your suspect but I dont think he fits the criteria of being a valid suspect. Alot of people have put forth names of people in recent years and it seems to be getting out of hand. most recent its Van Gogh and other artists. just because someone puts out a name and gives what they beleive is circumstantial evidence, does that make them "a" suspect. Is Van Gogh now "a" suspect?I think not. But only the test of time will tell i suppose.

Now, I would remiss having said all that-if i did not also say that i really do appreciate what you all have done in researching this very interesting charactor, who definitely is worth further research. Good luck and i will for one be looking out for any other findings you come up with.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Roy




Missed that, good catch, I am answering for Jimi here and can just apologise, this is just a simple mistake Jimi has made. This is his Achilles heel, for some reason, he keeps thinking that it was in the deposition that Sarah gave but it isn't, it is separate.

Do you know if I am allowed to publish the page on here to stop any confusion, or is it not allowed through copyright?

I do intend to type out all the records when I have caught up with everything so people can read it word for word rather than having to go from our posts. However in this instance it is a page that is typed out asking about previous attacks etc and one question is - Whether any near relative has been afflicted with insanity the answer to this is - Yes elder brother cut his throat

Sorry for any confusion and hope this clears it up.


Tracy

Hi tracy
Im a bit confused by this response. So who said Abraham cut his own throat-Sarah or Jacob?

[Errata]

I would just like to point out that any statements I made concerning the validity of newspaper reports, etc. was just spitballing until the particulars came out. It was an explanation why at first blush, I would take Levy's word over a newspapers. I would not take Levy's wife's word over that of an inquest. Similarly the method of hanging. You picture things in your head based on what you know. Because I couldn't hang myself in this 150 year old house, I pictured someone going to some trouble to hang themselves, which is odd. Clearly not impossible, but odd.

[John Wheat]

Wyatt
Bury is a more likely suspect than Levy. In fact in my opinion in 'The Crimes Of Jack the Ripper' by Paul Roland where Jacob Levy is originally suggested. Roland makes a better case for Bury being Jack.
John

[Scott Nelson]

Paul Roland didn't originate Jacob Levy's suspect status.

[Wyatt Earp]

Wyatt
Bury is a more likely suspect than Levy. In fact in my opinion in 'The Crimes Of Jack the Ripper' by Paul Roland where Jacob Levy is originally suggested. Roland makes a better case for Bury being Jack.
John

Thanks for that, John. I will be taking a look at the Roland book.

[Cogidubnus]

Belatedly

Tracy/Jimi I only just realised I hadn't thanked you for sharing your quite outstanding research...Thanks... another one to add to the list of "real" suspects!

Dave

[Roy Corduroy]

was just spitballing

I knew that. I know you don't read the books, the articles, the informational part of Casebook. Whatever we don't put up here in front of you on the message boards you assume doesn't exist, while you get your riffs in. Until we put it up here for you.

Roy

I may start charging for the pamphlets

You can still get a free one by sending a self addressed stamped envelope to

Roy Corduroy
14 Mud Island Cutoff
Trailer D
c/o the Flora-Bama Lounge

[Stephen Thomas]

Anybody...

What are the actual arguments against Jacob Levy being JTR?

[GregBaron]

A short list...

Hi all,

I read Tracy and Jimi's article right when ripper...124 came out so I'm going off the top of my head. I'll just throw out a few curious circumstances about this fellow to spur discussion...

1) A butcher – not a baker nor candlestick maker
2) Had syphilis – probably a frequenter of prostitutes and an anger motive
3) Was a kleptomaniac – Chapman’s stolen rings and no money found on any victim could indicate a similar condition in the killer
4) Was a wanderer – in his wife’s words
5) Lived in the heart of the district – especially close to Mitre Square
6) Was 5’3” – which coincided coincidentally with Joseph Levy’s “3 inches higher” description of the man he didn’t see!
7) Was eventually “caged in an asylum and died shortly thereafter”
8) Was a Jew – not a low class Polish one but a medium class (and falling) Dutch one
9) Was fond of drink – according to his wife
10) Had a bolt hole and experience with blood stains
11) Was possibly the suspect mentioned by Sagar
12) Fell into mental illness

Again, just a few things that come to mind. I believe this character could have been muddled up with the Kozminski mess........speculative of course...


Greg

[Jimi]

Update

Hi All
Thank you for both the compliments and the critisims. Honestly, discussion is the fuel of knowledge.
I, like others ,do NOT want to get into a 'my suspect is better than your suspect' argument, they all have their pros and cons.
Where exactly was Bury in August 1888? He kills and mutilates his wife,stuffs her in a trunk then confesses to the police. Real Ripper M.O. that
Where was Kelly in 1888?
You see? We are not saying these are not viable suspects.They are, thats why they are suspects. What we are saying is that they are no better than Jacob, and in our opinion not as good. My opinion.
Don't run away with the idea that we first 'discovered' Jacob. We gained our first info from Casebooks dissertation by Mark King. Which brings me to......
My first actual insight into Jacob was through Joseph. I always felt here was a guy who knew more than he was saying. But why? I hypothesised that Joseph and Jacob could be related and 5 years later ( with a lot of help) we have proved this. Now ask the question " why didn't Joseph identify Jacob"? This research isn't finished, in all honesty there is more,possibly much more to come, however due to ,how can i put it, other sights and various nefarious characters claiming discoveries, I felt Tracy wasn't getting the credit for her tremendous work and wrote the article.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Jimi]

A Profile

Hi All
Hi Greg
Thanks for that. As you can see a mere twelve point quick summary of Jacobs ability to be classed as JTR.
At number three , you mention Kleptomania.Within the article we posited the possibility of Jacob being a Kleptomaniac,however ,in our opinion we thouht this unlikely.(Sorry if we gave you the wrong idea) Kleptos are usually disorganised and depressive,victims of substance abuse and severely anxious. While we were working from Jacobs imprisonment in 1886 we didn't think it figured. Howver, I agree it could possibly have featured at a later date.
Moving on.
In the article I titled the period 1881-1890 'The decade of Destruction'.
My reason for this was that it wasn't about the killing and mutilation in Whitechapel, but about the slow decline of Jacob Levys life. As Jack the Ripper I hate Jacob,but as Jacob Levy,well, we learnt to feel sorrow and pity a mans fight against a disease he and medical science who could do nothing to save him.
So,no I don't think Jacob was a gibbering ,slavering wreck. To pass him in the street he would have looked as normal as anyone. Except for when the illness struck.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Cogidubnus]

Neat

Now ask the question " why didn't Joseph identify Jacob"?

And that, of course, is the wonderful, all-singing, all-dancing, tie-in...

Dave

[GregBaron]

Agreed...

Hi All
Hi Greg
Thanks for that. As you can see a mere twelve point quick summary of Jacobs ability to be classed as JTR.
At number three , you mention Kleptomania.Within the article we posited the possibility of Jacob being a Kleptomaniac,however ,in our opinion we thouht this unlikely.(Sorry if we gave you the wrong idea) Kleptos are usually disorganised and depressive,victims of substance abuse and severely anxious. While we were working from Jacobs imprisonment in 1886 we didn't think it figured. Howver, I agree it could possibly have featured at a later date.
Moving on.
In the article I titled the period 1881-1890 'The decade of Destruction'.
My reason for this was that it wasn't about the killing and mutilation in Whitechapel, but about the slow decline of Jacob Levys life. As Jack the Ripper I hate Jacob,but as Jacob Levy,well, we learnt to feel sorrow and pity a mans fight against a disease he and medical science who could do nothing to save him.
So,no I don't think Jacob was a gibbering ,slavering wreck. To pass him in the street he would have looked as normal as anyone. Except for when the illness struck.
Keep Well
Jimi

That's fine and dandy Jimi, one needn't be a kleptomaniac to enjoy stealing stuff.....especially valueless stuff.......as apparently did Jacob and the ripper............

Also, I understand your pity for the suffering, dying creature whether ripper or not...

Greg