Was the Artist Henri de Toulouse Lautrec Implicated in the Killings?

[Bridewell]

What is compelling about the suggestion that it was originally in French is that the GSG was recorded differently by different persons.

It was indeed recorded differently by Pc Long & Dc Halse, but I don't see how it is possible, from that, to draw a conclusion that it was originally in French. If you have a solid basis for that conclusion, I would be very interested to read about it.

I have always found it peculiar that Warren had the GSG erased so promptly before it could be photographed as it could well have been used to identify its author. Such high handedness would never be allowed among the police today. Okay, so it was anti-Semitic but it could easily have been covered before the photographer arrived.

I don't share your belief that HTL was the Ripper, but we are in complete agreement on this.

Regards, Bridewell.

[galexander]

Just a note on the above. If the spectre was real and wasn't just the imagination of a solitary nun, it would appear that it was a little repentant about something. According to the story it would join in with the nun's praying and then leave with a piercing scream........

A little dramatic for a sad alcoholic?

[galexander]

Just out of interest it appears that Lautrec himself may have produced a ghost which was said to have haunted a nun at a property Lautrec had owned at Boussagues.

This is one of the visions she saw:

It is a sort of choir-boy who appears to her each time, but of such bizarre appearance that there is no risk of meeting anyone like him in Boussagues… He wears the little calotte and, over his ordinary clothes, a white surplice with a belt of red material. Although he is the size of a child, he also wears spectacles and… a very thick beard of the most beautiful black. It is whispered that this singular servant of the Mass is afflicted with a tic which makes him continually lick his violaceous lips, as if he were dying of thirst…

It is in the room known as “the study” that the ghost is to be seen, according to an immuable rite. When the nun hears swishing and sighing, she opens the door to this chamber next-door to her own and shines a petrol-lamp which has a reflector: the spectre is usually already perched on a chair, in the process of carefully adjusting the Comtoise clock. Sister Delphine then sees him descend with difficulty and approach her. She stands aside and lets him enter her bedroom. He walks with a limp over to the window where he stops. The nun prays aloud and it sometimes happens that the apparition recites with her one or two Aves before disappearing suddenly, each time letting out a piercing scream…

You can read more at the following:

http://marilynkaydennis.wordpress.co...autrecs-ghost/

[galexander]

Well, I had to build a National Gallery once, which means I learned more than I ever wanted to know on the subject. But the building has always been a museum, so unless a patron keeled over from old age or something, I doubt it's the building that's haunted. It wasn't even used during the war, which is kind of unusual.

Sorry Errata but you must have missed the following:

Haunted Gallery 16, National Gallery, WC2. During the night of 25 September 1999, CCTV cameras picked up a dark figure walking around the gallery. Gallery 42 is also said to be haunted; it is believed that a plague pit exists underneath.

History is a funny thing.

[Errata]

It would be interesting to know if that room at the National Gallery is in fact haunted or even if it is the painting itself which is causing any spooky phenomena.

Well, I had to build a National Gallery once, which means I learned more than I ever wanted to know on the subject. But the building has always been a museum, so unless a patron keeled over from old age or something, I doubt it's the building that's haunted. It wasn't even used during the war, which is kind of unusual.

[galexander]

Gale, I think it would take some very compelling evidence to convince me of your case, but I sincerely love the story you've told of your experience in the National Gallery.



Your 'It appears' is priceless! Regardless of my thoughts on your suspect, I do hope the process of researching some very interesting people has been rewarding, and in a sense I envy you that

It would be interesting to know if that room at the National Gallery is in fact haunted or even if it is the painting itself which is causing any spooky phenomena.

[galexander]

Well, TB had a stigma attached to it, especially as a doctor. Everyone knew how incredibly virulent it was. And there was no cure at that time. There was a very serious risk of Bourges losing everything with a diagnosis of TB. I can't imagine that he would fabricate such a potentially dangerous alibi when safer ones were to be had. Whether or not he actually had TB I can't guess. But if he had been exposed to it (perhaps in the person of Carmen Gaudin) and then developed respiratory symptoms, he may well have checked himself in to get evaluated (which at the time took awhile in the early stages). And it could be he had something else entirely, like pneumonia or even allergies, and so left early.

And working the night shift at a mental hospital had no glamour to it either. I can think of about 30 better alibis that no one could confirm or deny, and that would not damage his reputation. I don't think it's this doctor.

On the other hand, you have never mentioned to one thing that potentially links these murders to a frenchman. The GSG. Clearly the spelling and the language is awkward, possibly due to a faulty command of the English language. But in French, the word for Jews is Juif, and for Jewish women, Juives. Someone unsure as to how to spell "Jew" in English would guess the spelling based on his own language. Which could easily end up as Juwes. Or if the handwriting isn't clear enough, Juives could look like Juwes.

It's not possible to mention everything that I cover in my book but I do actually suggest that the GSG was possibly a poor translation from French into English and go into some detail concerning this.

What is compelling about the suggestion that it was originally in French is that the GSG was recorded differently by different persons.

I have always found it peculiar that Warren had the GSG erased so promptly before it could be photographed as it could well have been used to identify its author. Such high handedness would never be allowed among the police today. Okay, so it was anti-Semitic but it could easily have been covered before the photographer arrived.

[Henry Flower]

Gale, I think it would take some very compelling evidence to convince me of your case, but I sincerely love the story you've told of your experience in the National Gallery.

He also asked me if I intended to damage any of the paintings but I managed to convince him that I did not. What could have finally convinced him I was okay was that I recall that I could have asked him if the room was haunted. It appears that he did not have a good reply for this and sat back down.

Your 'It appears' is priceless! Regardless of my thoughts on your suspect, I do hope the process of researching some very interesting people has been rewarding, and in a sense I envy you that

[Errata]

During the critical months in question and when Bourges was absent from Lautrec's side, he claimed to have temporarily booked himself into a TB clinic (possibly at Monte Dore; I am in Spain at the moment so I am going by memory) and then shortly after ended up working nights at a mental asylum at Bicetre (again according to memory).

Was Bourges just giving an excuse here or was he really at these locations?

At the same time Lautrec had entered himself into a sailing contest.

Well, TB had a stigma attached to it, especially as a doctor. Everyone knew how incredibly virulent it was. And there was no cure at that time. There was a very serious risk of Bourges losing everything with a diagnosis of TB. I can't imagine that he would fabricate such a potentially dangerous alibi when safer ones were to be had. Whether or not he actually had TB I can't guess. But if he had been exposed to it (perhaps in the person of Carmen Gaudin) and then developed respiratory symptoms, he may well have checked himself in to get evaluated (which at the time took awhile in the early stages). And it could be he had something else entirely, like pneumonia or even allergies, and so left early.

And working the night shift at a mental hospital had no glamour to it either. I can think of about 30 better alibis that no one could confirm or deny, and that would not damage his reputation. I don't think it's this doctor.

On the other hand, you have never mentioned to one thing that potentially links these murders to a frenchman. The GSG. Clearly the spelling and the language is awkward, possibly due to a faulty command of the English language. But in French, the word for Jews is Juif, and for Jewish women, Juives. Someone unsure as to how to spell "Jew" in English would guess the spelling based on his own language. Which could easily end up as Juwes. Or if the handwriting isn't clear enough, Juives could look like Juwes.

[Errata]

Thanks Errata.

During HTL's mental deterioration in later years, his alcoholism and persecution mania, I've found no mention of Doctor Bourges. He was sufficiently tied to HTL to murder 5 prostitutes at the family's behest, but not to guide HTL through his final descent into mental sickness and death? Either the tie was never that close to start with, or else the family felt he had murdered 4 prostitutes too many, and in too public a fashion, so they wanted someone less eccentric to care for their son. (Their son who, despite being nearly out of control, saying wild and crazy things, believing the police were coming for him, never blabbed a word about his family having commissioned the Ripper killings?

Hell that's an easy one. The second Bourges marries a respectable woman, TL has to be out of his life. Because you can't be respectable family man and doctor while hanging out in whorehouses. I'm sure he dropped in to pay his last respects, but he had a reputation to attend to. He couldn't treat TL anymore than he could indulge in the absinthe binges.

[galexander]

Thanks Errata.

So, HTL was in Villiers-sur-Morin in the autumn of 1888, probably staying with Albert Grenier - whose beard and melancholy features I've loved since I first discovered HTL's portrait of him at the Met a few years ago. Where Bourges was I've not been able to discover.

Errata, where have you got the 'artist commune' information from? I know it's called a 'commune', but in France that's a purely administrative term is it not, equivalent to a village or parish. I've been unable to discover any evidence that it was an artists' commune other than the fact HTL and his Montmartre colleague/landlord Grenier summered there often. By that token, Arles was an artists' commune too while Van-Gogh and Gauguin were at the Yellow House.

HTL and Bourges lived together from '87 to '93, at No.19 and then No.21 rue de la Fontaine. They parted as housemates when Bourges married in 1893.

Various things to consider:

If Bourges was HTL's friend and housemate rather than his doctor, does that make it more or less likely that he would avenge his friend's illness by slaughtering Whitechapel prostitutes?

If HTL had any inkling of what had happened, what type of person was he that he continued to live with the doctor as a friend until the doctor married in 1893?

If HTL had any inkling of what had happened, what type of artist was he that the only clue he left was a sketch of a dental procedure (regardless of whether that was 'normal' subject matter for a late Impressionist!)?

Thank goodness Bourges didn't get a taste for killing after his bloodbath in Whitechapel, instead becoming a respected author on disease and bacteria. Has anyone been able to discover whether or not he included in his text L'hygiène du syphilitique advice on the most efficient way of hacking the flesh from a dead prostitute's thighs and abdomen? If he did, that might be a clue!

During HTL's mental deterioration in later years, his alcoholism and persecution mania, I've found no mention of Doctor Bourges. He was sufficiently tied to HTL to murder 5 prostitutes at the family's behest, but not to guide HTL through his final descent into mental sickness and death? Either the tie was never that close to start with, or else the family felt he had murdered 4 prostitutes too many, and in too public a fashion, so they wanted someone less eccentric to care for their son. (Their son who, despite being nearly out of control, saying wild and crazy things, believing the police were coming for him, never blabbed a word about his family having commissioned the Ripper killings?)

Bourges' wife - is anything known about her?

Gale: you may have facts that answer or refute any or all of the above, and as someone fascinated by the milieu I'd be sincerely interested to see any parts of your manuscript that you might like to share.

I looked again at HTL's portrait of Doctor Bourges, and it struck me that it bears a slight resemblance to the rather sinister photos of Walter Sickert in his top hat. I think that certain images (though they resemble only the mythic Ripper, not the actual likely descriptions) set the imagination running. What was your starting point Gale?

During the critical months in question and when Bourges was absent from Lautrec's side, he claimed to have temporarily booked himself into a TB clinic (possibly at Monte Dore; I am in Spain at the moment so I am going by memory) and then shortly after ended up working nights at a mental asylum at Bicetre (again according to memory).

Was Bourges just giving an excuse here or was he really at these locations?

At the same time Lautrec had entered himself into a sailing contest.

I looked again at HTL's portrait of Doctor Bourges, and it struck me that it bears a slight resemblance to the rather sinister photos of Walter Sickert in his top hat. I think that certain images (though they resemble only the mythic Ripper, not the actual likely descriptions) set the imagination running. What was your starting point Gale?

At the risk of sounding like a crack-pot I have always had this spooky feeling about Toulouse-Lautrec. Watching the John Huston film "Moulin Rouge" as a child it has stayed in my mind ever since that Lautrec was 'like' Jack the Ripper.

Also visiting the National Gallery, London I had a peculiar experience. I had just viewed David's famous study of Napolean on horseback and a fantastic painting, I can't remember by whom, which looked just like a photograph it was so realistic. You couldn't see the brush marks and it's worth visiting the gallery just to see this one painting it's so good.

I just left this room and upon going through the open doorway I heard all this noise like there was a party going on next door. I could hear middle class sounding women talking animatedly and laughing but I couldn't work out where the sound was coming from. I went to the next open doorway to investigate and the security guard came over the ask if everything was alright. I explained that I could hear this noise but apparently he couldn't hear a thing himself. He also asked me if I intended to damage any of the paintings but I managed to convince him that I did not. What could have finally convinced him I was okay was that I recall that I could have asked him if the room was haunted. It appears that he did not have a good reply for this and sat back down.

I then proceeded to view the art in the same room and my attention was immediately drawn to a painting in the corner of the room of a red headed lady. It was Carmen Gaudin by Toulouse-Lautrec.

[Errata]

Thanks Errata.

Errata, where have you got the 'artist commune' information from? I know it's called a 'commune', but in France that's a purely administrative term is it not, equivalent to a village or parish. I've been unable to discover any evidence that it was an artists' commune other than the fact HTL and his Montmartre colleague/landlord Grenier summered there often. By that token, Arles was an artists' commune too while Van-Gogh and Gauguin were at the Yellow House.

I don't mean "artist commune" like a communal living facility filled with dirty hippies. I mean "artist commune" in that the region was an exceptionally popular place for artists to go and sketch or paint. To commune with nature and some nice looking barns. However the tourist information for Ile de France says that it was very popular with impressionists, so It's likely other artists were around. I assume they communed, but went to their separate rented houses at the end of a night's drinking.

[Henry Flower]

Thanks Errata.

So, HTL was in Villiers-sur-Morin in the autumn of 1888, probably staying with Albert Grenier - whose beard and melancholy features I've loved since I first discovered HTL's portrait of him at the Met a few years ago. Where Bourges was I've not been able to discover.

Errata, where have you got the 'artist commune' information from? I know it's called a 'commune', but in France that's a purely administrative term is it not, equivalent to a village or parish. I've been unable to discover any evidence that it was an artists' commune other than the fact HTL and his Montmartre colleague/landlord Grenier summered there often. By that token, Arles was an artists' commune too while Van-Gogh and Gauguin were at the Yellow House.

HTL and Bourges lived together from '87 to '93, at No.19 and then No.21 rue de la Fontaine. They parted as housemates when Bourges married in 1893.

Various things to consider:

If Bourges was HTL's friend and housemate rather than his doctor, does that make it more or less likely that he would avenge his friend's illness by slaughtering Whitechapel prostitutes?

If HTL had any inkling of what had happened, what type of person was he that he continued to live with the doctor as a friend until the doctor married in 1893?

If HTL had any inkling of what had happened, what type of artist was he that the only clue he left was a sketch of a dental procedure (regardless of whether that was 'normal' subject matter for a late Impressionist!)?

Thank goodness Bourges didn't get a taste for killing after his bloodbath in Whitechapel, instead becoming a respected author on disease and bacteria. Has anyone been able to discover whether or not he included in his text L'hygiène du syphilitique advice on the most efficient way of hacking the flesh from a dead prostitute's thighs and abdomen? If he did, that might be a clue!

During HTL's mental deterioration in later years, his alcoholism and persecution mania, I've found no mention of Doctor Bourges. He was sufficiently tied to HTL to murder 5 prostitutes at the family's behest, but not to guide HTL through his final descent into mental sickness and death? Either the tie was never that close to start with, or else the family felt he had murdered 4 prostitutes too many, and in too public a fashion, so they wanted someone less eccentric to care for their son. (Their son who, despite being nearly out of control, saying wild and crazy things, believing the police were coming for him, never blabbed a word about his family having commissioned the Ripper killings?)

Bourges' wife - is anything known about her?

Gale: you may have facts that answer or refute any or all of the above, and as someone fascinated by the milieu I'd be sincerely interested to see any parts of your manuscript that you might like to share.

I looked again at HTL's portrait of Doctor Bourges, and it struck me that it bears a slight resemblance to the rather sinister photos of Walter Sickert in his top hat. I think that certain images (though they resemble only the mythic Ripper, not the actual likely descriptions) set the imagination running. What was your starting point Gale?

[Errata]

Errata, you seem to have killed this thread stone dead!

Those pesky facts, ruining everything!

Yeah, turns out that Bourges was A doctor not HIS doctor. They were living together until 1891, TL was in an artist commune and Bourges was at home.

[Henry Flower]

Simon,

We have a deal.

But I'm still waiting to hear who Lautrec paid Bourges to pay to kill 5 prostitutes while they were away in ****** cementing their alibis.

Goodnight all.