Was the Artist Henri de Toulouse Lautrec Implicated in the Killings?

[johns]

Hi galexander

Do you think that Lautrec was Jack the Ripper? I haven't been able to work out where you stand on this point from the various posts.

Regards
John

[Suzi]

Write it out a hundred times!!!!

[Robert]

Nice one, Simon.

[Simon Wood]

Nosey Parkers, perhaps?

[galexander]

Hi Errata,

I'll back-track a little on what I said earlier. I don't think it strange that a Pc carried a pen but, yes, it probably was unusual to use one on the street. I suspect that, in the LVP pocket book entries were made in pencil, for the reasons of practicality which you point out. Do we know that Pc Long's note was written in ink? Might it have been in dark pencil?

Regards, Bridewell.

It doesn't look like dark pencil to me because the thickness of the line appears to vary noticeably.

If Victorian policemen had carried fountain pens they could have got another nickname, "Inkies"!

Any opinions anyone?

[Steven Russell]

Unlike ballpoint ink, the ink used in nib pens runs if moistened even after the ink has neen on the page for a long time. If Victorian ink was similar to today's in this regard, this is another reason why pens would have been impractical on the beat - a few drops of rain and you're knackered.

My feeling is that pencil would be used in notebooks, then reports written up in ink back at the station ASAP. Anyone know if this is correct?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Robert]

Looking at worst case scenarios, I should think they carried a small knife or some other instrument which could act as a pencil sharpener. I can guarantee that if I'd been on the beat in 1888, my pencil would have broken.

[Bridewell]

Hi Errata,

I'll back-track a little on what I said earlier. I don't think it strange that a Pc carried a pen but, yes, it probably was unusual to use one on the street. I suspect that, in the LVP pocket book entries were made in pencil, for the reasons of practicality which you point out. Do we know that Pc Long's note was written in ink? Might it have been in dark pencil?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Errata]

Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple

It's not like I don't think they wouldn't have had access or anything, I just think it's a bit impractical for a guy who walks a beat. I mean, they were pretty big, they leaked, they were tough to refill, they sputtered when writing at a weird angle... None of which is a problem for a guy at a desk, but it all would be a problem for a guy trying to take notes while standing in the freezing rain. I mean, they couldn't take spare ink with them and an eyedropper to refill the pen in some alley while taking a statement from someone. Fountain pens just weren't as portable as they would appear to be at first glance. For a cop who walks a beat, it would be a colossal nuisance.

[galexander]

Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple

Because ink tends to smudge without blotting paper making a bit of a mess.

What exactly have you got against pencils anyway........?

Can some historian please help out here? Did Victorian PC's use pencils or fountain pens when taking notes?

According "Answers" Victorian schoolchildren did not use fountain pens but used slates. Does this answer your question?

[Rubyretro]

PS.: Who's next as a JTR suspect? Degas, Manet? :-)

[/QUOTE]

c'mon Maria...MJK was a bit of a Picasso job...

[Bridewell]

Pens

Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple

The same was true at the school I attended. I got into trouble for taking a ballpoint to school, even though I had told my father (probably at the last minute!) that it had to be a fountain pen. When I joined the police the use of a pencil in your pocket book was an absolute no-no; you could be accused of rubbing something out! I, too, see nothing unusual in a Pc having a pen.

Regards, Bridewell.

[miss marple]

Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple

[galexander]

For what it's worth, this is an observation I made in 2010:

Apologies if this has been pointed out before.

In my view, DC Halse's rendering of the graffito should be seen as more reliable than that of Long. Firstly as, according to this site, Long's original spelling of "Jewes" was corrected to "Juwes" and secondly as Halse has used inverted commas to denote 'new paragraph but still part of the quotation'. Thus he has been careful to record the message line by line. This being the case, I believe we should trust him as to exact wording and spelling.

Best wishes,
Steve.

However, the Met copy as posted by Chris G. (which I now believe to be in Sir Charles Warren's hand) agrees with Long. Confusing.

S.

Steven Russell makes a very good point that many of us may have missed.

According to the punctuation offered by Halse the message may have taken the following form on the wall:

The Juwes are
not the men that will be blamed for
nothing

This is from the following:

[galexander]

Anyone else wonder why a PC was carrying a pen? I mean, Detectives totally need a pen... but for the guy who walks a beat and occasionally runs while shouting at someone, a fountain pen seems a bit of an extravagance. I would have assumed a scrap of pencil.

I agree.

Although I don't know for a fact I am sure a pencil would have been a standard issue before the invention of ballpoint pens.





Also the style of the hand doesn't exactly look like something which has been jotted on a notepad.

I wonder what happened to the originals?