Mr McCarthy and some questions

[bonestrewn]

No disrespect intended but none of the C5 were high class call girls. My understanding is that their services basically cost roughly the same price as a drink. If any of them (including Mary) had a pimp then both of them probably would have starved to death.

c.d.

I understand your point, C.D. For me, when I think about how far Mary was in arrears and the seeming illogic of letting her stay in the room when she was so far behind, it makes sense to suggest that McCarthy was in some way profiting by her continued presence. I also seem to recall that prostitutes with private rooms were able to charge more? Of course, no need to agree with me on this point.

[bonestrewn]

....but this suggestion makes a lot of sense to me and clarifies his actions that morning, as well as why he chose to lie about his knowledge of and relationship to Mary, in order to avoid being targeted for living off of "immoral earnings."

After viewing the scene in Miller Court I doubt the police gave a rat's ass about "immoral earnings."

c.d.

Certainly a fair point! I'll say, though, that after big shocks like what happened to Mary, people often act in bizarre or seemingly irrational ways, and can be secretive or difficult even about things that have no bearing on the situation. For example, McCarthy would surely have had an extra key to the room, or known about the spring lock accessible through the broken window, so why did he leave the police waiting to get into the room for hours? Again, not asking you to agree with me, just explaining how I understand the course of events.

[Lewis C]

I understand your point, C.D. For me, when I think about how far Mary was in arrears and the seeming illogic of letting her stay in the room when she was so far behind, it makes sense to suggest that McCarthy was in some way profiting by her continued presence. I also seem to recall that prostitutes with private rooms were able to charge more? Of course, no need to agree with me on this point.

I don't suspect that McCarthy was a pimp, but I will say that considering that Mary was the only Ripper victim that had her own room and was also by far the youngest of the Ripper victims, I think that she could have charged more for her services than any of the other Ripper victims did.

[The Rookie Detective]

The alleged sighting of Astrakhan man by Hutchinson, combined with Kelly's alleged claim that she had theatre connections, and the fact that Mccarthy himself was involved heavily with the entertainment world and boxing industry, it suggests to me a strong likelihood that Astrakhan man was either an actor or boxer who Kelly was on familiar terms with.

That's not to say that he was the Ripper; if indeed he existed at all.

[The Rookie Detective]

For anyone in doubt about how influential Mccarthy was...

1901...




A man who shouldn't be underestimated.

[The Rookie Detective]

And this...



"Old Jack"

[c.d.]

For me, when I think about how far Mary was in arrears and the seeming illogic of letting her stay in the room when she was so far behind, it makes sense to suggest that McCarthy was in some way profiting by her continued presence.

Hello bonestrewn,

And if McCarthy had evicted her what would he have gained? I suppose it could be argued that it put pressure on other tenants to come up with what was owed but in terms of actual cash in hand he would gain nothing.

To me, the simplest and most logical explanation is that he believed Mary to be good for the rent at some point. Perhaps she had a history of being behind but always paid eventually.

Considering the pool of people he would be renting to (poor, inconsistent work history, probably heavy drinkers) he would be taking a chance that they just might up and leave some day leaving him high and dry. So basically the devil you know.

And I wouldn't be surprised to discover that there was a little quid pro quo from time to time between him and Mary.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I don't suspect that McCarthy was a pimp, but I will say that considering that Mary was the only Ripper victim that had her own room and was also by far the youngest of the Ripper victims, I think that she could have charged more for her services than any of the other Ripper victims did.

True, but keep in mind that there were apparently quite a number of prostitutes (regular or occasional) in Whitechapel. So lots of competition. Also, look at the room. So more? Yes, but how much more and would that be enough to share with a pimp?

c.d.

[GBinOz]

....but this suggestion makes a lot of sense to me and clarifies his actions that morning, as well as why he chose to lie about his knowledge of and relationship to Mary, in order to avoid being targeted for living off of "immoral earnings."

After viewing the scene in Miller Court I doubt the police gave a rat's ass about "immoral earnings."

c.d.

Not so sure about that c.d.. This is from the Daily Telegraph 12 Nov 1888:

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.
MARLBOROUGH-STREET. - DISORDERLY HOUSE PROSECUTION. - Alfred and Amelia Becker were charged on remand with using a certain portion of a house in Berners-street for immoral purposes. The complaint was that of a medical man on the ground floor of the house, who had been greatly annoyed by the woman taking strange men upstairs. - The defence was that they came in for the purpose of purchasing birds from an aviary on the upper floor, but this defence was abandoned. - Mr. Newton told the man that he was a despicable person. He had no sympathy whatever for a man who lived on his wife's immorality. He must go to prison for a month, with hard labour, and the woman must pay a fine of 20s, and £4 costs, or, in default of distress, be imprisoned for a month.

Speculation: Did McCarthy send Bowyer ahead while he made a quick check of the room to ensure that there was nothing there that would incriminate him? However, as you suggest, the police did have larger fish to fry, but would McCarthy have been prepared to take the risk?

[Trevor Marriott]

Not so sure about that c.d.. This is from the Daily Telegraph 12 Nov 1888:

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.
MARLBOROUGH-STREET. - DISORDERLY HOUSE PROSECUTION. - Alfred and Amelia Becker were charged on remand with using a certain portion of a house in Berners-street for immoral purposes. The complaint was that of a medical man on the ground floor of the house, who had been greatly annoyed by the woman taking strange men upstairs. - The defence was that they came in for the purpose of purchasing birds from an aviary on the upper floor, but this defence was abandoned. - Mr. Newton told the man that he was a despicable person. He had no sympathy whatever for a man who lived on his wife's immorality. He must go to prison for a month, with hard labour, and the woman must pay a fine of 20s, and £4 costs, or, in default of distress, be imprisoned for a month.

Speculation: Did McCarthy send Bowyer ahead while he made a quick check of the room to ensure that there was nothing there that would incriminate him? However, as you suggest, the police did have larger fish to fry, but would McCarthy have been prepared to take the risk?

Hi George

Slightly off topic

Are you aware that McCarthy and Abberline were both Masons?

Abberline was a member of The Zetland 511 Lodge and McCarthy a member of the King’s Head lodge.

www.trevormarriott

[Herlock Sholmes]

That’s a bit of a coincidence. I’m going to London to meet up with a friend from America in September. He wants to visit the Natural History museum so I was looking at decent nearby pubs. The very first one that I saw was The Zetland Arms.

[Geddy2112]

That’s a bit of a coincidence. I’m going to London to meet up with a friend from America in September. He wants to visit the Natural History museum so I was looking at decent nearby pubs. The very first one that I saw was The Zetland Arms.

The where? Literally the best of British to you. It's always so busy...

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi George

Slightly off topic

Are you aware that McCarthy and Abberline were both Masons?

Abberline was a member of The Zetland 511 Lodge and McCarthy a member of the King’s Head lodge.

www.trevormarriott

As were many of the senior police officials who worked the case; including the big man himself; Sir Charles Warren.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That’s a bit of a coincidence. I’m going to London to meet up with a friend from America in September. He wants to visit the Natural History museum so I was looking at decent nearby pubs. The very first one that I saw was The Zetland Arms.

Do you mean the pub or the museum Geddy?

[Geddy2112]

Do you mean the pub or the museum Geddy?

The museum. It's like IKEA in Hell. Getting pushed around, no room, loads of little jam eaters even if the schools are back. I'm getting PTSD just typing about it...