Blotchy

[Abby Normal]

The offer will always stay open Abby, as soon as someone figures out how "they" realized he was fabricating, and by what documented evidence, then the offer is still open to put an end to this conjecture.

But not to divert the thread...




Though not if the police believed MJK died "after 4:00 am", right?
They would have to believe in a "Time of Death" of around 1:00-2:00 am. for them to pursue Blotchy, it was afterall 11:45 pm when Cox saw him enter Kelly's room.
No-one else saw Blotchy, not in the street, not in a pub, or beershop. The police did look for this guy.



What do we do with a man who only appeared for one brief shining moment?
He's no more traceable than the Bethnal Green botherer, right?, and how much attention does he get?, just the same.



When someone is up to no good, complacency is not foremost on there mind.
They will be anxious, and will feel vulnerable, and the mutilations to Kelly could have been completed within the hour.

Do you think Blotchy was done & gone by the time Hutchinson walked up to Kelly's door at, what shall we say, maybe 2:20 am?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Wicker
But not to divert the thread
No we dont-Hutch has been done to death. All it really comes down to is whether you beleive him or not. I beleive he was there that night but probably did not see MK or Aman.

Though not if the police believed MJK died "after 4:00 am", right?
They would have to believe in a "Time of Death" of around 1:00-2:00 am. for them to pursue Blotchy, it was afterall 11:45 pm when Cox saw him enter Kelly's room.

No-not really. he could have killed her any time after the time she was last heard singing and up to the early morning. I do place weight with the corrobarated cries of murder around 4:00am so that is most likely TOD.

What do we do with a man who only appeared for one brief shining moment?
He's no more traceable than the Bethnal Green botherer, right?, and how much attention does he get?, just the same.
He could be discussed ALOT more than he is at the very least. BG man has always been an intriguing character for me as I have said to you in the past, and I dont rule him out at all. Blotchy however was seen by a very credible witness with the victim entering her room and was the last man seen with MK while she was alive (other than the probably fictitious Aman). That should put him a couple notches above BGman IMHO.

When someone is up to no good, complacency is not foremost on there mind.
They will be anxious, and will feel vulnerable, and the mutilations to Kelly could have been completed within the hour.

Given the opportunity, serial killers have been known to spend hours, days with their victims.

Do you think Blotchy was done & gone by the time Hutchinson walked up to Kelly's door at, what shall we say, maybe 2:20 am?

Probably not-which is why Hutch probably left. As I stated before i think TOD was probably around 4:00 so Blotchy was more than likely done and gone by 5:30 ish. But other possible scenarios is he was done and gone much earlier and Hutch received no answer when he knocked on her door around 2:15 ish and beleiving she was still out, decided to wait around for 45 minutes and when she did not return, left.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I find it hard to envisage a scenario where they agree that he pays for an hour and a half of singing followed by 10 minutes punter/prostitute. Seems unlikely, and as we can be reasonably certain he didn't pay for a quick 10 minutes then the best option is that he paid for the night.

Clearly, the invitation was not one of 10 minutes before Mary moved onto the next punter.

The evidence points to her settling down for the night - the singing, the folding of the clothes, the beer pot, her being intoxicated.

Hi FM
Absolutely. also, the bad weather, being very comfortable with Blotchy, the fire.

[Abby Normal]

I may be mistaken, Abby, but Cox didn't say Blotchy was drunk.

Regardless, we all know inhibitions are relaxed when under the influence.

you are right. I beleive I was responding to someone who said something to the effect that a drinking/ drunk killer does not fit their idea of a serial killer/JtR.

[Abby Normal]

"Blotchy Face" is only a description though, not the name of a person, so I'm not sure how much consideration 'he' can get, other than to acknowledge the possibility that whoever killed MJK may have had a blotchy face and a thick carroty moustache.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell

]"Blotchy Face" is only a description though, not the name of a person, so I'm not sure how much consideration 'he' can get

Sorry i disagree. He was an actual person seen by a witness.

[Wickerman]

... Blotchy however was seen by a very credible witness with the victim entering her room and was the last man seen with MK while she was alive (other than the probably fictitious Aman). That should put him a couple notches above BGman IMHO.

Abby.
As much as I have no reason to doubt Cox, she doesn't have to be intentionally lying to be simply wrong.
In my view a "very credible witness" is one who's story can be corroborated.

Cox was not a credible witness, nothing she claimed was verified by anyone. In fact possibly contradicted by Prater, unless we make considerable allowances, which should not instil anyone with confidence.

Regards, Jon S.

[Abby Normal]

Abby.
As much as I have no reason to doubt Cox, she doesn't have to be intentionally lying to be simply wrong.
In my view a "very credible witness" is one who's story can be corroborated.

Cox was not a credible witness, nothing she claimed was verified by anyone. In fact possibly contradicted by Prater, unless we make considerable allowances, which should not instil anyone with confidence.

Regards, Jon S.

Sorry Wick
What is she wrong about -are you saying she hallucinated Blothcy? What are you saying?

People are convicted everyday on eye witness accounts that are not "corroborated" so I would say your standard of what makes a "credible witness" a tad unrealistic. And besides you are even contradicting yourself as everyone knows that cox was not the only witness to hear Mary singing that night. You are quite mistaken I am afraid.

[Wickerman]

Sorry Wick
What is she wrong about -are you saying she hallucinated Blothcy? What are you saying?

My reservation with Cox is that she got the time wrong after she left her house at midnight.

And besides you are even contradicting yourself as everyone knows that cox was not the only witness to hear Mary singing that night. You are quite mistaken I am afraid.

No, you didn't read what I said.
I have no problem with Cox saying she saw Kelly with Blotchy at 11:45 pm.
Cox then said she left about 15 minutes later, Kelly was singing.
Pickett also heard Kelly singing about 12:30 am.

No problem with the above.

Its what Cox claimed after that I am suspicious of, due to the conflict between her & Prater it is possible that Cox got the time wrong. She didn't return at 1:00 am.

It would have been easy for the police to corroborate Praters time's, they only had to ask McCarthy, she was in the shop talking to him.
Prater heard no singing after 1:00 am, VanTurney heard no singing at all.

No-one corroborated Cox's claims.

Mary Kelly could have been killed by Blotchy between 12:30 & 1:00 am (I don't think so), or she could have left and gone back on the streets.

Cox went out, so why not Mary? The weather is always used as an excuse, but clearly it wasn't bad enough to keep Cox indoors.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hi Abby.
Although this is off-topic for this thread, I couldn't see anywhere else to post it. Just a follow-up to our mention of the Bethnal Green botherer?

What do we do with a man who only appeared for one brief shining moment?
He's no more traceable than the Bethnal Green botherer, right?, and how much attention does he get?, just the same.
He could be discussed ALOT more than he is at the very least. BG man has always been an intriguing character for me as I have said to you in the past, and I dont rule him out at all.

It always appeared to me that Mrs Paumier had met the same character, and the fact he appears to have conducted himself, and was of similar appearance to the man who accosted Lewis & Kennedy, makes me think Paumier's suspicious character was indeed the Bethnal Green man.

As you might be aware, there has been at least one opinion expressed that Mrs Paumier as a witness was invented by the press.

Interestingly, in the Morning Advertser, 10 Nov. we read of the arrest of a suspicious man:

"A man was arrested last night in Whitechapel on suspicion of being concerned in the murder. He was given into custody by some women as being a man who had accosted them last night, and whose conduct was suspicious. He was taken to Commercial-street police-station, followed by an immense crowd."

As you can see, it may be the same man. However, the report says "accosted them last night", being that this was a morning paper on the 10th, the accosting must have occured Friday night?
That was my assumption, so I dismissed this report.

Interestingly, Howard has just posted the very same report from The Northern Echo, 10 Nov. but worded a little different.

"A man was arrested last night in Whitechapel on suspicion of having committed the Dorset-street crime. He was pointed out to the police by some women as a man who had accosted them on Thursday night and whose movements excited suspicion. He was taken to Commercial-street police-station, followed by an immense crowd."

Now it appears this character could indeed be the very same man.
He was arrested under suspicion, and obviously cleared.

So much for Paumier's story being a press invention

Hey, maybe this put the willy's up him and stopped him murdering for a while?

Ok, back to the thread...

Regards, Jon S.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.
Although this is off-topic for this thread, I couldn't see anywhere else to post it. Just a follow-up to our mention of the Bethnal Green botherer?



It always appeared to me that Mrs Paumier had met the same character, and the fact he appears to have conducted himself, and was of similar appearance to the man who accosted Lewis & Kennedy, makes me think Paumier's suspicious character was indeed the Bethnal Green man.

As you might be aware, there has been at least one opinion expressed that Mrs Paumier as a witness was invented by the press.

Interestingly, in the Morning Advertser, 10 Nov. we read of the arrest of a suspicious man:

"A man was arrested last night in Whitechapel on suspicion of being concerned in the murder. He was given into custody by some women as being a man who had accosted them last night, and whose conduct was suspicious. He was taken to Commercial-street police-station, followed by an immense crowd."

As you can see, it may be the same man. However, the report says "accosted them last night", being that this was a morning paper on the 10th, the accosting must have occured Friday night?
That was my assumption, so I dismissed this report.

Interestingly, Howard has just posted the very same report from The Northern Echo, 10 Nov. but worded a little different.

"A man was arrested last night in Whitechapel on suspicion of having committed the Dorset-street crime. He was pointed out to the police by some women as a man who had accosted them on Thursday night and whose movements excited suspicion. He was taken to Commercial-street police-station, followed by an immense crowd."

Now it appears this character could indeed be the very same man.
He was arrested under suspicion, and obviously cleared.

So much for Paumier's story being a press invention

Hey, maybe this put the willy's up him and stopped him murdering for a while?

Ok, back to the thread...

Regards, Jon S.

Hee Hee

Lyrics by ZZ Top

Clean shirt, new shoes
And I don't know where I am goin' to.
Silk suit,black tie,
I don't need a reason why.
They come runnin' just as fast as they can
Coz' every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man.

Gold watch, diamond ring,
I ain' missin'not a single thing.
And cufflinks, stick pin
When I step out I'm gonna do you in.
They come runnin' just as fast as they can
Coz' every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man.

Top coat, top hat,
I don't worry coz my wallet's fat.
Black shades, white gloves,
Lookin' sharp and lookin' for love.
They come runnin' just as fast as they can
Coz' every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man.

Your new sig perhaps? : )

[Fleetwood Mac]

Yes, Prater does indicate that she went up to bed about 1:20 am. so Cox could have come out after 1:20.
But, Prater was standing at the end of the passage from 1:00-1:20, and went up to her room and in bed by 1:30 ?
So, contrary to cox, if Kelly had been singing after 1:00 am Prater couldn't help but have heard her.
Which begs the question, did Cox really know what time it was?

There isn't necessarily an inconsistency between the two statements, and no such inconsistency was highlighted at the inquest.

Cox leaves around 1am; Prater returns around 1am.

As Cox heard Kelly singing, and Prater didn't, then that would suggest that Kelly finished her singing activities after Cox had left and before Prater returned; which, given Cox/Prater times of around 1am (give or take a few minutes, naturally), the singing ended around 1am.

According to Prater there was no light in Mary's room at 1.20am. So, at some point between 1am and 1.20am the light goes out. Let's say 1.10am - does Kelly sit noiselessly in the dark for 20 odd minutes before leaving?

This would suggest Kelly is dead or sleeping.

If sleeping, then she really was out and about on the streets at 8am in the morning - Cox doesn't sleep and hears people moving about in the court - but no door opening and closing.

If dead, then Blotchy and Kelly have shared a beer, had a sing song/chat etc. Around an hour minimum, realistically? This would take them to around 12.45am - not enough time for Kelly to have headed back to the streets, happened upon Jack and returned prior to her murder. And, as we know she is still singing around 1am, it is clear she has not left her abode prior to 1am.

If dead, then Blotchy is probably the killer. As said, Blotchy is aware Cox is up and about not far away. If Cox can hear doors opening and closing then so can Blotchy and Kelly. So, Blotchy doesn't risk killing her while Cox is about, but he does when he hears Cox leave the court at around 1am. And, so, when Prater returns there is no singing and the lights are out.

Of course, none of this accounts for the murder cry.

[Rubyretro]

.
,

the singing ended around 1am.

According to Prater there was no light in Mary's room at 1.20am. So, at some point between 1am and 1.20am the light goes out. Let's say 1.10am - does Kelly sit noiselessly in the dark for 20 odd minutes before leaving?

This would suggest Kelly is dead or sleeping.

If sleeping, then she really was out and about on the streets at 8am in the morning - Cox doesn't sleep and hears people moving about in the court - but no door opening and closing.

Not necessarily. She could have gone to sleep, and then have been attacked by an intruder in her bed.

Of course, none of this accounts for the murder cry.

[/QUOTE]

Well, it would if she was awoken by a man who had broken into her room and who was holding a knife.

For what it's worth, this is my take on the Blotchy story :

-Mary was out trying (or succeeding) to solicit during the evening.
-She finished in a pub, either spending the proceeds, or trying to bum drinks.
-either way she was in high spirits when she met Blotchy in the pub -a man that she knew.
-One of them suggested to get a pail of beer and go back to her place and 'party' à deux.
-They pass Mrs Cox as they are going into Mary's.
-Mary lights the fire.
-They consume the beer and Mary sings, but they are both too drunk for sex and tired and so call it a night around 1am (Blotchy has to get home to the family).
-Blotchy leaves (possibly leaving the door on the latch). Mary goes to bed, folding her clothes. The fire dies right down, but the embers are hot and glowing.
-Mrs Prater comes home. Mary's room is dark.
-The Ripper, who knows Mary and knows that Joe no longer lives there, has been secretly stalking her and biding his time. He sees Botchy leave and waits long enough for the room to have been quiet and dark for awhile and for there to be no witnesses around (he may be Hutchinson, or not).
-the Ripper either puts his hand through the window, has the missing key, or
Blotchy has left the door open.
-He gets into the room but Mary awakes as he approaches the bed and shouts and tries to defend herself (cuts to arm), she tries to hide under the
bedclothes (cuts through sheet ?) and moves up to the partition trying to get away (cut to right side by right handed man on top of her).
-The Ripper feeds up the fire and does his business and leaves silently.
-Mrs Cox's description of Blotchy isn't good enough to identify him (she got it a bit wrong). Blotchy doesn't come forward because he has a wife and family.

[Fleetwood Mac]

.
,

Not necessarily. She could have gone to sleep, and then have been attacked by an intruder in her bed.

Possibly.

If Cox is correct, and the killer's timing was good, then he would have had upto an hour and 10 minutes.

.

-He gets into the room but Mary awakes as he approaches the bed and shouts and tries to defend herself (cuts to arm), she tries to hide under the
bedclothes (cuts through sheet ?) and moves up to the partition trying to get away (cut to right side by right handed man on top of her).

I doubt very much that had Kelly been awake, the pool of blood and splatters would have been found in the position they were, which argues against my Blotchy waiting until Cox had left possibility.

[Wickerman]

Hi FM

There isn't necessarily an inconsistency between the two statements, and no such inconsistency was highlighted at the inquest.

Cox leaves around 1am; Prater returns around 1am.

But Cox returned about 1:00 am, Kelly still singing, Cox warmed her hands, then left again after 1:00 am, Kelly still singing.

This is where her statement overlaps Prater who arrived about 1:00 am, at the court. As she says, even if Kelly had been singing in her room while Prater stood at the end of the passage, she would have heard her.

Someone is out on 'time'.

Having Kelly singing from 11:50 pm? until after 1:00 am is a little much to take.
If Cox really did here her singing, she must have come back earlier than 1:00 am, I think.
All was quiet from 1:00 am onwards, according to Prater, and no light in her room.

This would suggest Kelly is dead or sleeping.

Agreed.

If sleeping, then she really was out and about on the streets at 8am in the morning - ...

Hmm, if sleeping, Blotchy had left and she could have returned to the street at anytime later.

If dead, then Blotchy and Kelly have shared a beer, had a sing song/chat etc. Around an hour minimum, realistically? This would take them to around 12.45am - ...

Which is when Blotchy 'could' have killed her.
Bearing in mind what I see as inconsistency in Cox's statement, when compared to Prater.

If dead, then Blotchy is probably the killer. As said, Blotchy is aware Cox is up and about not far away. If Cox can hear doors opening and closing then so can Blotchy and Kelly. So, Blotchy doesn't risk killing her while Cox is about, but he does when he hears Cox leave the court at around 1am.

How does he know it's Cox?
She lived at the far end of the court, at best, all he might hear is a shuffle of footsteps.

I think the probability is that Cox had her times wrong and left the court before 1:00 am. and Kelly was either dead or back out on the streets.

Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

A few interesting points regarding the inquest, Wickerman, is that Prater is asked to corroborate Cox's statement, but McCarthy isn't asked to corroborate Prater's.

Cox mentions a lamp; Hutchinson doesn't.

What we don't know is how much alcohol was sunk by these women.

Cox being unable to sleep suggests she was in a decent state.

[Bridewell]

"Blotchy Face" is only a description though, not the name of a person, so I'm not sure how much consideration 'he' can get

Sorry I disagree. He was an actual person seen by a witness.

I think you've misunderstood my point. Blotchy Face was a person, but all we know of him is a description, so there is little if any realistic line of research. I apologise for the original ambiguity.

Regards, Bridewell.