Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Ben]

Good point, Abby!.

To all - just a minor clarification: in reference to Jon's bizarre suggestion that I had "backed myself into a corner", I was referencing Lewis' evidence ONLY.

[The Good Michael]

Also, isnt funny that the only part of Hutchs story that is corroberated by anyone else is his waiting and watching?

That is conjecture. No one mentioned seeing Hutchinson and an intoxicated prostitute (Lewis) who says she saw a stocky guy in the general vicinity, is hardly corroboration.

Mike

[Abby Normal]

That is conjecture. No one mentioned seeing Hutchinson and an intoxicated prostitute (Lewis) who says she saw a stocky guy in the general vicinity, is hardly corroboration.

Mike

Hi Mike
But Hutch says he was there. At the exact time doing the exact thing that SL says. Thats good enough for me.

I find SL a reliable and beleiveable witness as i do Cox, which also causes me to beleive that Blotchy could also be our man.

[The Good Michael]

Hi Mike
But Hutch says he was there. At the exact time doing the exact thing that SL says. Thats good enough for me.

I find SL a reliable and beleiveable witness as i do Cox, which also causes me to beleive that Blotchy could also be our man.

If it's good enough for you, that doesn't mean it's the case. Hutch never said he saw her and she never said she saw him. I guarantee in the general vicinity there were more than a few men out and about that exact time of night.

Mike

[Malcolm X]

the problem with GH lieing is..........SL could have easily said ``no, that aint the guy i saw outside, looks nothing like him``....... she did not.

i'm presuming that GH thought that it was safe to go to Abberline, because he knew that SL saw him well.... because GH/JTR has to be seen well waiting outside !

therefore it's safe to go to Abberline as the man outside, GH never mentions seeing her....no, but why should he...... but i expect Abberline mentioned her to him, off the record and GH thought ``good i was seen``.... Because if he was seen outside, it makes LA DE DA appear convincing!

he might even have said to Abberline, ``if you dont believe me, ask that woman to ID me, because she saw me well``.

GH also doesn't know ( if he was never there) who else might have walked in or out of millers court from 2 to 3am, so to go to Abberline as a total liar and not knowing this vital information is very risky indeed.... because one of the residents might have gone to Abberline later on, just like him and said, ``nope i didn't see anyone waiting outside, and i was outside with a friend for 15 mins at about 2.30``

i therefore think you'll find that GH was definitely there, because he knows exactly what happened that night, and the only people that walked by him, other that SL were other blokes, that didn't notice him and he wont care less anyway..... because the more that see him the better, but the vital time that nobody else must be around is from 2 to 2.10am.... nobody around to say, ``i didn't see MJK, that GH is a liar``.

and of course..... never seen returning at at 4am !!!!

[GregBaron]

Black bag man...

I guarantee in the general vicinity there were more than a few men out and about that exact time of night.
Mike

I'm not sure out and about is the same as standing in the rain looking up the court Mike, but you're right, it's not definite, only a likelihood.

In re-reading the Inquest statements a few things jump out at me...

Cox

[Coroner] How many men live in the court who work in Spitalfields Market ? - One. At a quarter- past six I heard a man go down the court. That was too late for the market.
[Coroner] From what house did he go ? - I don't know.
[Coroner] Did you hear the door bang after him ? - No.
[Coroner] Then he must have walked up the court and back again? - Yes.

I wonder if this might have been the ripper? With a 4 o'clock murder and an hour or two of mutilations this may have been the first time the coast was clear...

Lewis

[Coroner] Was he a tall man ? - He was short, pale-faced, with a black moustache, rather small. His age was about forty.
[Coroner] Was it a large bag ? - No, about 6in to 9in long. His hat was a high round hat. He had a brownish overcoat, with a black short coat underneath. His trousers were a dark pepper-and- salt.
[Coroner] Have you seen him since ? - On Friday morning, about half-past two a.m., when I was going to Miller's-court, I met the same man with a woman in Commercial-street, near Mr. Ringer's public-house (the Britannia). He had no overcoat on.
[Coroner] Had he the black bag ? - Yes.

Hutchinson

He has a pale complexion, a slight moustache turned up at the corners (changed to dark complexion and heavy moustache in the press reports), dark hair, dark eyes, and bushy eyebrows. He is, according to Hutchinson, of "Jewish appearance."

I know this one has been hammered by Ben and Fisherman but these descriptions do bear a similarity. Black bag? Pale? Dark mustache? Small?

Are these dreams or might this be the same person? Perhaps there were lots of small, dark haired men with black bags meandering about?

I apologize in advance if I rekindle an old argument...


Greg

[Abby Normal]

If it's good enough for you, that doesn't mean it's the case. Hutch never said he saw her and she never said she saw him. I guarantee in the general vicinity there were more than a few men out and about that exact time of night.

Mike

What is your point anyway? Are you actually arguing in favor of Hutch lying about being there? He said he was there?!?

[Malcolm X]

if anyone sais that he's lieing about seeing MJK/ LA DE DA, but was proven to be still waiting outside by SL, then bang he's had it, he's JTR.

so to check carefully, he has to go to the inquest and to nose around outside and this is when he realises.... ``good, nothing was seen at 2am, but i was seen waiting outside later on, and she saw me well too``

``there's no other tittle tattle going on yet and i didn't hear anything yesterday either, right i'm off to see Dear Boss, but you'd better have a good excuse for being two days late``

maybe, well you never know

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure out and about is the same as standing in the rain looking up the court Mike, but you're right, it's not definite, only a likelihood.

In re-reading the Inquest statements a few things jump out at me...

Cox



I wonder if this might have been the ripper? With a 4 o'clock murder and an hour or two of mutilations this may have been the first time the coast was clear...

Lewis



Hutchinson



I know this one has been hammered by Ben and Fisherman but these descriptions do bear a similarity. Black bag? Pale? Dark mustache? Small?

Are these dreams or might this be the same person? Perhaps there were lots of small, dark haired men with black bags meandering about?

I apologize in advance if I rekindle an old argument...


Greg

Hi Greg
This shady charactor seen by Sarah lewis is known as BG man (Bethnal Green Man), but cant be Hutchs AMan as the timing does not fit. Hutch has already taken his watch outside Millers court after following/watching MK and Aman go into her room, when SL then makes her appearance at Millers court. BG man is still "Behind" in Commercial street.

[Malcolm X]

the bloke walking up the court and back again could have been a policeman on his beat....JTR?... More like leaving only and on tip toes

could have been JTR leaving, but not banging the door, closing it very precisely and slowly. the witness wasn't smart enough to counter the Coroner.

if he's killed her at 4am, you can bet your last dollar that he'd be in there for ages staring at his handy work !

[Ben]

Oh!

And when I said "good point" to Abby, I was referring to his observation a while back regarding Sarah Lewis. It may look as though I was responding to the post that immediately preceded mine, but he merely jogged my memory that I owed him a thumbs-up from a few posts ago.

Please forgive these tedious clarifications, but I have reason to be somewhat paranoid about creating the wrong impression these days.

[The Good Michael]

I know this one has been hammered by Ben and Fisherman but these descriptions do bear a similarity. Black bag? Pale? Dark mustache? Small?

I agree Greg. I think they are one and the same.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

What is your point anyway? Are you actually arguing in favor of Hutch lying about being there? He said he was there?!?

I am not arguing such a thing. I am arguing that no one knows that Hutch was the man Lewis saw. If Hutch was there at the same time, why didn't he mention Lewis? It would have added some credibility to his statement of hers corroborated his. He didn't because he didn't see her. That means he was either not paying any attention or that he wasn't there when she was.

Mike

[GregBaron]

Black bag brigade...

Hi Greg
This shady charactor seen by Sarah lewis is known as BG man (Bethnal Green Man), but cant be Hutchs AMan as the timing does not fit. Hutch has already taken his watch outside Millers court after following/watching MK and Aman go into her room, when SL then makes her appearance at Millers court. BG man is still "Behind" in Commercial street.

Thanks for clearing this up Abby. I guess there were lots of dark haired guys with black bags but only if our Hutch was fabricating and of course many believe he was.

I agree Greg. I think they are one and the same.

Hmm....I just saw this........I guess Michael doesn't agree with this timing?


I suppose even if Astro-Man existed, he isn't necessarily the murderer. He'd probably be done with whatever his business was by 3:15 or 3:30 and be off.

I'm with those who think the unknown assailant let himself in at 4 o'clock...


Greg

[Malcolm X]

Thanks for clearing this up Abby. I guess there were lots of dark haired guys with black bags but only if our Hutch was fabricating and of course many believe he was.



Hmm....I just saw this........I guess Michael doesn't agree with this timing?


I suppose even if Astro-Man existed, he isn't necessarily the murderer. He'd probably be done with whatever his business was by 3:15 or 3:30 and be off.

I'm with those who think the unknown assailant let himself in at 4 o'clock...


Greg

No, about 6in to 9in long. His hat was a high round hat. He had a brownish overcoat, with a black short coat underneath. His trousers were a dark pepper-and- salt.

unfortunately GH does not describe this bloke, LA DE DA is different in many ways, maybe because SL saw another bloke but not with MJK/ ON ANOTHER NIGHT, or she is simply totally useless..... the timers aren't right anyway.

no GH is definitely the key here, he's either JTR, saw JTR or JTR is Blotchy, but i think you'll find that he was definitely there, because if not, he would have foulded under interrogation from Abberline, but he didn't' he's too aware and confident..... he definitely knows something!

he's not stuttering around and changing his story later, he's pushing his point all the time, he's very fixated on this foreigner.