Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Ben]

For Kelly's room to be "all quiet" (Prater) at 1:30 am, number 13 must have been empty, both Kelly & Blotchy had left

Not necessarily, Jon.

"All quiet" at 1:30am is just as consistent with Kelly being alone and asleep in her room at that time.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon, Prater stood at the entrance / McCarthy's shop until 1:20-1:30.

Yes thankyou Dave, Prater appears to have stood outside the passage by the shop from 1:00 - 1:20 am, then retired to her room. Had Kelly been singing at that time we might expect her voice to be heard only 25 ft away down the passage.
Regardless, Prater went upstairs at 1:20 and heard nothing from Kelly's room, getting into bed at 1:30 am.
It seems unlikely Kelly was singing after 1:00am.

someone did complain, because someone said, ``leave the poor girl alone, let her sing``, but without checking right now i cant remember who this was,

I recall posting something to that effect just recently from The Daily Chronicle, but I don't think the time given was late.

Dave/Malcolm, I was being a tad sarcastic. When some find conflict in testimony they jump for the "wrong day" argument, I should have put a smilie up after that.

...the problem we have is GH, because to favour another suspect, you have to sweep him aside and discard him instantly, which is maybe foolhardy, simply because it really does look like that he was up to no good....

A good half of the men out at night in Whitechapel were up to no good, but they were not all JtR.

...because if JTR heard her as he walked by, this doesn't have to be GH either.

Well, if Prater couldn't hear Kelly singing at 1:00 am down the passage I'm not sure any passing JtR would have heard her either.
But then, I don't think she was singing at that time, but many here do.

Under victims, here on Casebook:
12:30 AM: Catherine Pickett, a flower-seller who lives near Kelly, is disturbed by Kelly's singing. Picket's husband stops her from going down stairs to complain. "You leave the poor woman alone." he says.

Thankyou Curious, you & Malcolm jogged my memory, the quote I have from the Daily Chronicle, 10 Nov. suggests Picket & her hubby heard Kelly singing at 12:30 am.

I don't believe Cox had the day wrong , I suspect as I mentioned a while back to Ben that Cox had her times wrong.

Prater specifically say's it was quiet by 1:20-1:30 am, and she obviously did not hear Kelly singing at 1:00 am when she arrived back home.

Julia van Turney said she could not rest all night, and heard no singing at all.
Allowing for possibly nodding-off occasionally as we all do, then if Kelly had been singing it could not have been for long.

Cox said Kelly began singing about 11:45pm when she saw her with Blotchy, the Pickets said they heard Kelly singing about 12:30 am.

However, Prater who returned to Millers Court at 1:00 am did not hear any singing between 1:00am-1:30am, which conflicts with Cox who believed Kelly was singing at 1:00am and for a few minutes after.

I suspect Cox returned earlier than 1:00 am, she assumed the wrong times.
Had Kelly been singing for any great length of time her neighbour (van Turney), opposite the passage, couldn't help hearing her sing.

And we know Kelly was not singing later than 2:15-30? am, due to the presence of Sarah Lewis.

Kelly is not about to spend too long singing, she has a client to entertain. And he's not there for a couple of bars of "violets on graves", he has other things in mind.
For Kelly's room to be "all quiet" (Prater) at 1:30 am, number 13 must have been empty, both Kelly & Blotchy had left. Now she has money to spend...

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

Under victims, here on Casebook:
12:30 AM: Catherine Pickett, a flower-seller who lives near Kelly, is disturbed by Kelly's singing. Picket's husband stops her from going down stairs to complain. "You leave the poor woman alone." he says.


Pickett was also the one who lived directly across and claimed to have seen the body through her own window -- so therefore after the police took down the coat to let more light into MJK's place.

yea that's it

whatever the case, nobody has ever put forward a very strong arguement that states that MJK was not singing/ killed in the morning, or went out again after 3am......let alone a Copycat etc

what would be really intersting to know is:-

1..... when did MJK stop singing, nobody really knows
2......what is the exact shape of the hole in the window, to get your arm through
3......why doesn't there look like there's enough flesh on that table, i think!
4......Did Sarah really see GH, or someone else outside in Dorset St, this is flipping crucial !

[curious]

On the face of it you might think so, but ask yourself why is it only Cox who claims to have heard Kelly singing?, not Lewis opposite upstairs, not van Turney opposite downstairs, not Prater above upstairs?

Maybe Cox got the wrong night?

Regards, Jon S.

Under victims, here on Casebook:
12:30 AM: Catherine Pickett, a flower-seller who lives near Kelly, is disturbed by Kelly's singing. Picket's husband stops her from going down stairs to complain. "You leave the poor woman alone." he says.


Pickett was also the one who lived directly across and claimed to have seen the body through her own window -- so therefore after the police took down the coat to let more light into MJK's place.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Jon, Prater stood at the entrance / McCarthy's shop until 1:20-1:30. As she saw nobody entering or leaving the Court, Cox probably went out again shortly before Prater's arrival, and Kelly probably stopped singing at around 1:00/ 1:20. Their accounts do not conflict.
Whether Blotchy left between Cox departure and Prater's arrival, or after 1:20-1:30, is difficult to ascertain, but I see no evidence of Cox having the night wrong.

No you wouldn't get a night as important as this wrong, only if it was two weeks ago

[Malcolm X]

On the face of it you might think so, but ask yourself why is it only Cox who claims to have heard Kelly singing?, not Lewis opposite upstairs, not van Turney opposite downstairs, not Prater above upstairs?

Maybe Cox got the wrong night?

Regards, Jon S.

someone did complain, because someone said, ``leave the poor girl alone, let her sing``, but without checking right now i cant remember who this was, and i'm not going to search through this website to find out, this is when i really miss my Ripper books.

anyway, something like this was deffo said.

it is strange because her room is very small, it's almost too intimate for a male friend.... where does Blotchy crash out for an hour whilst she's singing, he must be either extremely close to her, or on the bed.

when he left is impossible to say, only to guess at, as is what went on in there.

the problem we have is GH, because to favour another suspect, you have to sweep him aside and discard him instantly, which is maybe foolhardy, simply because it really does look like that he was up to no good....and this is me being totally and utterly unbias !

because if JTR heard her as he walked by, this doesn't have to be GH either.

my guess is JTR is either blotchy or one of these two others.

but to go on too much about GH just bores everyone, so that's it no more for now

[DVV]

Hi Jon, Prater stood at the entrance / McCarthy's shop until 1:20-1:30. As she saw nobody entering or leaving the Court, Cox probably went out again shortly before Prater's arrival, and Kelly probably stopped singing at around 1:00/ 1:20. Their accounts do not conflict.
Whether Blotchy left between Cox departure and Prater's arrival, or after 1:20-1:30, is difficult to ascertain, but I see no evidence of Cox having the night wrong.

[Wickerman]

one hour is a long time to sing and you'd definitely hear her as you walked by, he only has to stop and investigate and see that broken window.

On the face of it you might think so, but ask yourself why is it only Cox who claims to have heard Kelly singing?, not Lewis opposite upstairs, not van Turney opposite downstairs, not Prater above upstairs?

Maybe Cox got the wrong night?

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

Come to think of it, Annie Farmer was said to have been singing for hours before she was attacked, and back a Dutfields yard the Club members were having a sing-song....

i wouldn't dismiss this so lightly, because statistically she is in great danger by singing for so long, whilst he's out and about cruising his turf, because Dorset st is a favourite haunt for Prostitutes and drunks, it attracts trouble and thus JTR.

one hour is a long time to sing and you'd definitely hear her as you walked by, he only has to stop and investigate and see that broken window.

what happens if he walks off but cant find another suitable victim, that will take him back to hers, he's liable to return roughly an hour later.... because by then, MJK out of sheer frustation, now looks like a very tempting target indeed, and a break in now looks like a good idea, that maybe it didn't earlier on.

JTR wouldn't quit over Dutfields and doesn't mind staying up till the cows come home, therefore in theory, he doesn't mind waiting outside Millers court for ages either..

a copycat killer ? no he's just desperate to get inside that room, because he's fed up killing on the streets and being disturbed all the time.

[Wickerman]

.....or did he hear her singing instead as he was walking by, not sure, but life's a bitch sometimes, so maybe he did!

Come to think of it, Annie Farmer was said to have been singing for hours before she was attacked, and back a Dutfields yard the Club members were having a sing-song....

[lynn cates]

All good things come to those who wait.

Hello Malcolm. You must give it some time.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

i dont know about in 1888,but a few years ago i got to know a street prostitute quite well(not as a client) and she told me some of the weirdos she attracted,whether there are more sexually dysfunctional people out there than we realise,or they go looking for street prostitutes as an outlet im not totally certain.being a drug addict she got herself in some really dangerous situations,she even banged on my door once to get rid of some creep.Im pleased to say shes clean now but the risks she took for money were bad,no doubt the Spitalfields prostitutes of 1888 did the same.

i also think JTR,like Peter Sutcliffe had a bad experience somewhere along the line with a prostitute and was possibly even impotent.and his rage probably increased over a period of time before he murdered,i wouldnt be amazed if he hadnt thumped a couple of prostitutes first.

yes you're not kidding !

there are some real sickos around, and all that a low class prostitute is to them, is a sex Doll, they dont respect them, they are seen as nothing more than ``filthy sluts``, horrible and sad but true, they are just pieces of meat..... .it is thus easier to ask one of these for perverted sex, rather than a high class Whore.

because a high class whore does not walk the streets, she has her own smart flat, clients are arranged in advance, a friend of a friend, they're not cheap and finally; she's more likely to be up the West End, and if you aren't smart and clean too, she will tell you to piss off..... so dont expect a high class whore to be interested in Joe Barnett stinking of fish and stale beer, or a Schizo who searches through dustbins like Koz !!!!!

it's a world apart from the filthy streets of whitechapel, these prostitutes are prey to every street mugger, every pervert and every Psychopath, but much much safer in their own houses, with clients arranged well in advance only, that's why legalising prostitues is far better, because they can do this from home/ pay their taxes etc and it gets them off the streets.

but MJK was killed in her home ?...... no it's not the same thing, this was not a safe secure home, it was a total dive instead and she didn't arrange her clients in a professional manner, she was the same as Eddowes, she dragged them in off the streets as in, ``look what the cat dragged in``... yea' it dragged in JTR.

or did it.....or did he hear her singing instead as he was walking by, not sure, but life's a bitch sometimes, so maybe he did!

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"what is strange and growing too, is that these 3 murders don't seem that linked to the others, like they once were.... copycat?"

You get that feeling too? Welcome.

Cheers.
LC

yes, but i'm not quite as crazy as you...yet !

[Malcolm X]

Which clearly indicates the direction of the abdominal cut was top to bottom, ie; sternum to pubes, directionally speaking.



Which means the knife point went upwards underneath the skin over the sternum.



Which only means the very lowest section of cartilage was cut obliquely by the knife. Today this lowest section is called the Xiphoid Process, pictured here:



Sometime back another member understood the cut to Eddowes abdomen went upwards, but there is no way you can interpret that from the medical description. The direction was downward.

Regards, Jon S.

ok thanks.

[Wickerman]

We examined the abdomen. The front walls were laid open from the breast bones to the pubes. The cut commenced opposite the enciform cartilage.

Which clearly indicates the direction of the abdominal cut was top to bottom, ie; sternum to pubes, directionally speaking.

The incision went upwards, not penetrating the skin that was over the sternum.

Which means the knife point went upwards underneath the skin over the sternum.

It then divided the enciform cartilage. The knife must have cut obliquely at the expense of that cartilage.

Which only means the very lowest section of cartilage was cut obliquely by the knife. Today this lowest section is called the Xiphoid Process, pictured here:



Sometime back another member understood the cut to Eddowes abdomen went upwards, but there is no way you can interpret that from the medical description. The direction was downward.

Regards, Jon S.