Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Wickerman]

I certainly take your point, Jon, but then you might care to read up on linguistic specificity hypothesis to better appreciate the importance of categorization in cultural and scientific advancement.

Thankyou Garry, and as we know an hypothesis is something not yet proven to be of value.

I'm not calling into question any academic usage. What I call questionable is the apparent need 'here' to classify an unidentified killer, of an unknown number of women, pursuing an undetermined motive.
And, people not particularly trained in these fields actually arguing whether the definitions are applicable "in their opinion", because when all is said and done, any partial conclusions arrived at lead nowhere.

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

Thankyou Garry, and as we know an hypothesis is something not yet proven to be of value.

I'm not calling into question any academic usage. What I call questionable is the apparent need 'here' to classify an unidentified killer, of an unknown number of women, pursuing an undetermined motive.
And, people not particularly trained in these fields actually arguing whether the definitions are applicable "in their opinion", because when all is said and done, any partial conclusions arrived at lead nowhere.

Regards, Jon S.

A lot of people build theories based on classifications of unknown quantities. In this very thread, I think the only thing everyone agreed on was that Jack The Ripper was a man. You gotta admit, there's only so far you can take that, and only so many conclusion you can draw. Like, he probably had a penis. And facial hair. We can't even agree if he had a dashing hat. You gotta play "what if" at least a little in this game. And everyone uses the tools at their disposal.

Me, I'm a social sciences girl. I have a LOT of psych under my belt, some sociology, a little anthropology. Those are my tools. It's true that if all you have is a hammer than every problem looks like a nail. This looks like a social sciences problem to me. If it doesn't look that way to you, that's fine. But that doesn't mean my tools suck. It means you disagree. It's disingenuous for anyone to say that know for a fact that Jack was... whatever. But speculating about different scenarios does no harm, and might do some good.

But come on. This is a 130 year old mystery. Full, partial, 99.9% of conclusions are gonna lead nowhere.

[FrankO]

He could have been a nobody who's normal adolescent curiousity about the female body morphed with some reason for hatred at the same time and a fantasy for acting it all out that became a reality.

Hi Hunter,

I missed this one in the whole discussion about anatomical knowledge! But I completely agree with what you’re saying here. He could have been just that.

Might we put it down as ‘fact’ that he took some measures not to get caught? Like killing at a time when there were relatively few people up & about in the streets and seeing to it that he didn’t step into any blood and didn’t get much on his clothes.

Or was he a more calculating murderer?

All the best,
Frank

[Hunter]

Hi Hunter,

I missed this one in the whole discussion about anatomical knowledge! But I completely agree with what you’re saying here. He could have been just that.

Might we put it down as ‘fact’ that he took some measures not to get caught? Like killing at a time when there were relatively few people up & about in the streets and seeing to it that he didn’t step into any blood and didn’t get much on his clothes.

Or was he a more calculating murderer?

Thank you for the reply, Frank.

What I submitted was, of course, highly speculative; something I'm usually uncomfortable with if it strays too far from what is known about these murders... the historical facts, if you will... which is my real interest in this series of events. But as Garry Wroe mentioned earlier, there were some clues and there is much more that has been learned in the past century and a quarter that is helpful in analyzing those clues.

For some reason, a series of murders commenced in the East End of London in 1888 that followed in quick succession, were contained in a very constricted area; ended suddenly... or at least tapered off considerably (if you include McKenzie and Coles); targeted a specific genre of women in which the actual female characteristics of these women were targeted in varying degrees in all but two cases... and, of course, not a soul was apprehended for any of them. There were reasons for all of this and legions of people have speculated as to those reasons.

What I suggested stemmed from the discussion about the extent of anatomical knowledge displayed in some of these murders and a suggestion as to how someone who could do what was done here could acquire it. Certainly, this discussion alone, has always been wrought with controversy. And depending on one's bias, the opinions of the contemporary medicos are often configured to fit some conclusion without understanding how it was treated as these events unfolded.

But if we look directly at the evidence alone- what I stated in the second paragraph- there may be some deductions that are more plausible than others. That the uterus was targeted on three occasion is certain; there's no coincidence here. That someone would have a reason for doing so and know where it is specifically located is also reasonable to me. How this knowledge was acquired could have stemmed from the natural adolescent male's curiosity about the female body. As I said, that curiosity will result in a quest for knowledge to some degree and is fueled by fantasizing. I challenge any heterosexual male to claim that they weren't curious about girls, didn't explore their female characteristics and didn't fantasize about it. There would be no human population if they didn't.

Simply, what could have happened here, is that normal phase in a young man's life took a turn somehow and for reasons that are unexplained. No psychological term can explain it because we don't know the catalyst... much less who this person was, and that, in itself has been a problem because so many have focused on trying to put a face to this killer, or even offer up multiple killers and ended up spending their resources trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

But that catalyst seemed to accelerate this curiosity/fantasy into a morbid direction. What may be ascertained as anatomical knowledge was probably just because this individual acted out his predilections in his mind over and over.He learned what was necessary. He had visualized what he was going to do many times before he did it and thus, was able to do it.

To me at least, this explains the victims targeted; the rapid acceleration of the murders; the adding to this fantasy as they progressed with even more aberrant undertakings if the chance was there, culminating in the ultimate satiation in Miller's Court enough to finally stop or taper off his activities to a lesser extent until it all just ended (if McKenzie and Coles were killed by the same hand).

The constricted area and the risks taken just tells me this killer had limited resources to work with and that, whatever the motivation was, the risks were worth taking.

Would it be a 'fact that he took some measures not to get caught? Like killing at a time when there were relatively few people up & about in the streets and seeing to it that he didn’t step into any blood and didn’t get much on his clothes'? Most serial murderers- no matter what their intelligence- take some measure to not get caught. They want to do it again. Spree killers or those who kill of passion often don't care.

As with any theories, mine is worth what it cost to read it. It was actually what I considered a misunderstanding of the medicos' take on these murders that prompted any response in this direction at all.

[curious]

But that catalyst seemed to accelerate this curiosity/fantasy into a morbid direction. What may be ascertained as anatomical knowledge was probably just because this individual acted out his predilections in his mind over and over.He learned what was necessary. He had visualized what he was going to do many times before he did it and thus, was able to do it.

To me at least, this explains the victims targeted;

Hi, Hunter,
What I understand you're saying here is that the killer researched the female body?

By books, undoubtedly, since that was all that was available at the time. medical? maybe -- or pornographic material -- I have not idea how that would exactly help with murdering someone . . .

Medical books, would they have photos of dissections? autopsies?

So, would the photographs most likely be of older people? could that possibly account for the age of the victims?

Does this conclusion lead to a man who could read and knew where to go to obtain the medical books?

And when you say: "To me at least, this explains the victims targeted" what were you considering here?

Interesting look at the killer.

Could he have been trying to autopsy the victims?

[The Good Michael]

The killer could have learned about anatomy from his mother or a sister or a neighbor girl. It didn't have to be a book. In fact, a willing or forceful family member could have taught him more.

Mike

[curious]

The killer could have learned about anatomy from his mother or a sister or a neighbor girl. It didn't have to be a book. In fact, a willing or forceful family member could have taught him more.

Mike

He could have learned about the innards from a family member? Even the thought of experimentation of a non-deadly sort doesn't make sense to me.

Or at least not in the household and family in which I grew up.

Perhaps his "study" began there.

[The Good Michael]

Curious,

I was talking about sexual abuse.

Mike

[Malcolm X]

there's quite a few Victorian Anatomy photos on Google, but i expect most of these were expensive illustrations/ prints back then and limited to hospitals/ medical colleges etc, with a few prints in the library.

anatomy started earlier on, in the Georgian era, with Surgeon-barbers and then later with BODY SNATCHER etc, but the general public would've been fairly ignorant of this...

porn ? no that's similar to today, just smutty photos, the serious S&M stuff is only in the last 40 years or so, but they did have stuff similar to the Marquis de Sade, but i doubt JOE AVERAGE had access to this kind of stuff.

but JTR would have access to paintings that depicted violence to women and children etc and from the Renaissance era, i.e war paintings/ crusaders/ French Revolution/ torture art/ public executions etc, because prints of this were in history books in the library, or simply under the history of Art

there are also quite a few paintings that depict Hell, devil worship/ witches/ people getting dragged down to hell, from the medieval era, so JTR does have access to loads of gruesome stuff that can fuel his Necrophilia perversions.

it's fairly obvious where your guts are, but not the other organs, but once he's gutted his victims, he can see right inside cant he and have a good groap around..... the trouble is i'm wrong arent i, because where the victims are the lighting is dreadful, almost pitch black...... except A.Chapman.

my guess is therefore that he knows where the organs are, and if he's been a bit clumsy/ careless, it's because he's using a razor sharp knife in the dark, whilst he's continually glancing around to see if he's safe, he's therefore not concentrating hard enough, these organs are very slippery and yucky and they're hard to grab hold of..... i think !

[Malcolm X]

why was he targeting the organs, if this is not for his own personal pleasure, or for his own medical reference?... if not, then these were for a paying client, or for the occult, more likely a rich client.

maybe he met someone that gave him a contract at about the same time as the Tabram murder, thus JTR was born !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

make no mistake about this, Tumblety was loaded...... or somebody similar !

[curious]

Curious,

I was talking about sexual abuse.

Mike

I don't believe sexual abuse shows a person where the uterus is located.

If the killers studies did begin in such a fashion, and his interest increased, I suspect he would have explored other avenues --such as Malcolm has outlined.

But that raises the question -- does that make the killer literate?

[Malcolm X]

I don't believe sexual abuse shows a person where the uterus is located.

If the killers studies did begin in such a fashion, and his interest increased, I suspect he would have explored other avenues --such as Malcolm has outlined.

But that raises the question -- does that make the killer literate?

yes i think it would have to, because to realise where the disturbing stuff is, points to intelligence and literacy, as well as education.

i.e half of the kids today wont even know who ``De Sade`` was.

if it wasn't for MJK, i'd say that JTR was targeting organs only, but the mess she's in, reveals that JTR was a sicko as well, in fact; it's beginning to start with Eddowes.

i'm not sure about any of this anymore, this much perversion would not stop after Kelly, you cant cure a pervert or a Paedofile etc, JTR would carry on.

why did he suddenly stop what he clearly enjoyed so much, his grande finale' was her heart, nothing needed after this and this is deffo an occult style mutilation anyway........ not sure, it keeps boiling down to this.

1....a perv would not stop till he was caught/ died or went insane, his sexual appetite would overcome him, sooner or later, just think of Garry Glitter trying to get onto Facebook recently.
2.....a contract killer would stop as soon as the contract finished
3.....a killer would have to stop if he inserted himself into the case
4.....an occult weirdo would stop after MJK as well

I dont think a contract killer would make such a mess of MJK, simply to hide what he was up to, plus to protect his client... does this make sense?

conclusion ..... only someone that was cold hearted and on a mission could stop, anyone else who was emotionally driven cant, he either carries on later on or dies.

why would GH go to the police after MJK, why not after another 5 more similar victims, this is JTR quitting too early isn't it and for no reason at all, because the police are nowhere near catching him..... unless he realised that next time, the bloodhounds might be sent after him and if he's local, they will definitely be able to catch him, for sure.

i dont know.... it could be, because the fear of Bloodhounds next time would definitely put me off, i'd think .....``i'm running out of time, look here in the paper, they're talking about sending out the Bloodhounds if these murders carry on``

[Errata]

I don't believe sexual abuse shows a person where the uterus is located.

If the killers studies did begin in such a fashion, and his interest increased, I suspect he would have explored other avenues --such as Malcolm has outlined.

But that raises the question -- does that make the killer literate?

I thought the literacy rate at the time for males was a little over 80%. Wouldn't it be more unusual if he wasn't literate?

[Errata]

I don't believe sexual abuse shows a person where the uterus is located.

If the killers studies did begin in such a fashion, and his interest increased, I suspect he would have explored other avenues --such as Malcolm has outlined.

But that raises the question -- does that make the killer literate?

Also, and my history is failing me here, but didn't butchers shops have animals laid open in plain sight? If his only knowledge of anatomy was from dead cows and sheep, and it wasn't informed knowledge (because presumably a butcher knows that cows and humans arent built the same) it might explain why he started his cut so high to take a uterus. He could have taken it easily only cutting from the naval down, but in cows and sheep, the uterus is right under the rumen which in us would be the stomach. If we were laid out the same way, you would have to start the cut at the sternum. Which he did.

The thing is, caesarians weren't all that common on humans, but they were terribly common in animals. Any who worked with animals would know how to access the uterus. Jack didn't. No direct knowledge. It had to be secondary. And a dead sheep in a window isn't a bad start.

[Malcolm X]

most anatomical cuts start at the Sternum down, with the whole area laid open and exposed, just like Eddowes.

the lower classes of London were quite illiterate, i'd be surprised if JOE AVERAGE JTR was as literate as he seems, i think he is, but i could be wrong, this is because the Graffiti is extremely well written and very clever too, it's almost poetic.