Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[DVV]

Agreed, Mike, in fact that is my point precisely. Paraphilia is just a synonym of the old "perversion", and there are perversions of all sorts, some harmless, some more dangerous. We are all "paraphiliacs", more or less, and the list of paraphilias cannot be exhaustive, it will evolve with human nature - and perversions.

[DVV]

Let's say : if tomorrow we find a guy whose passion is to make love with potatoes, that will become a new category or sub-category of paraphilia.

What Jack did reflected his own and personal paraphilia. So once we've said this, we haven't said a lot.

[The Good Michael]

Agreed, Mike, in fact that is my point precisely. Paraphilia is just a synonym of the old "perversion", and there are perversions of all sorts, some harmless, some more dangerous. We are all "paraphiliacs", more or less, and the list of paraphilias cannot be exhaustive, it will evolve with human nature - and perversions.

When I was in Gonder, I met a woman, about 6 feet tall and beautiful with only three words of English. When she wanted to go with me after an evening in the beer garden, and I found out she was in high school... well, I became a GonderEthioparaphiliac at that moment, but I did not give in to the voices in my head. Let's add that to our list.

Mike

PS. She's older now... I might go back

[DVV]

I know her quite well. Her name was Tigist, right ?
Now she has 4 children.

[The Good Michael]

Never got the name. But I will.

Mike

[lynn cates]

striking a pose

Hello Jon. Canvas? Oh no, not Walter Sickert?

Seriously, I'm not so certain about a pose. Wouldn't such a position be fairly standard in order to get where one "needs" to go?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

real story

Hello Michael. I agree with you about the Tate/LaBianca killings.

As you recall, they had an early suspect, Garretson. The killings were supposed a drug deal gone very wrong.

And the LaBianca killings were thought to be a copycat.

Can you imagine walking into a police station the next day, whilst Garretson was incarcerated, and claiming that Steve Parent had NOTHING to do with the killings as such, he was merely in the wrong place at the wrong time; and then proceed with the story of Helter Skelter?

I daresay they would have locked you up in an asylum. And yet . . . .

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

As you recall, they had an early suspect, Garretson. The killings were supposed a drug deal gone very wrong.
LC

Hi Lynn, routine aside, Garretson was suspected because it's difficult to believe him entirely. I'm almost sure he heard more than he said. Could even be a bit worse.

[lynn cates]

main point

Hello David. Well, he was cleared.

And my main point was that the "stands-to-reason" police case turned out to be entirely incorrect. But the real reason would have been dismissed as a lunatic's fancy.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hello David. Well, he was cleared.

Cheers.
LC

Of course. I'm not saying he killed anybody, but the killers confessed having gone to his apartment and even tried the door.

[Malcolm X]

Makes you wonder exactly what Tumblety was selling as a young man that was called pornography.


Mike

photos of gays wasn't it, young boys, young men etc

in addition, more ``normal`` victorian porn is common on the web, just google it and turn off ``safe search``... the Victorians were very kinky indeed

but if you do just make sure that you have some tissues handy; just in case !

[Abby Normal]

Actually it has nothing to do with deviancy. Or any degree of it. Fetishism is normal. Paraphilias are simply anything sexually oriented that cause a problem in the sufferer's life, or the inability to function. So if someone likes tying someone up now and again, no problem. When they can no longer function sexually without it, that's a problem. Masturbation can be a paraphilia. Missionary style sex with one's wife can be a paraphilia. It's about dysfunction and disruption.

Certain acts can only be paraphilias due to the nature of the acts. They are illegal, or life threatening. The four guaranteed paraphilias in the Western world are necrophilia, pedophilia, frotteurism, and snuff. There is no way to legally or consensually engage in these acts. Now there are some extremely weird fetishes out there. Sexual gratification from receiving an amputation for example, or the whole Furry thing. And there are quite a few of them that are extremely difficult to engage in legally and consensually, but it is possible. But as long as it is not disrupting a person's life, causing sexual or social dysfunction, or illegal, it isn't a paraphilia.

The reason I think it applies to this case is not due to any specific fetish that Jack might have had. It almost doesn't matter what the fetish was. It's the dysfunction that was caused. Perhaps an inability to engage in healthy sexual behavior, keeping him celibate until he could act out his fantasies. With cases like that, it is not unusual for there to be an explosive escape from self-denial. The legalization of homosexuality and the advent of the AIDS crisis is a perfect example. When people were finally free to indulge their sexual needs, years of repression caused an explosion that decimated the homosexual population because of some unheard disease showing up at the same time.

By the way, the most uncomfortable Abnormal Psych oral presentation ever. Ever. Especially when one of them is your boyfriend. Just saying.

Hi Errata
I think trying to define what behaviour is exactly a paraphilia is kind of like the same problem with trying to define exactly what "type" of serial killer JtR was (as previously noted in this thread). Its too nebulous a phenomenon to "Capture" totally accurately with strict definitions or categories. I'd tend to go with Garry's general description.

If i f--k my Geranium everyday-it may not be illegal, it may not hurt anyone or cause dysfunction. But I got a problem. Like someone once said-I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

By the way, the most uncomfortable Abnormal Psych oral presentation ever. Ever. Especially when one of them is your boyfriend. Just saying.

Whats up with your boyfriend?

[Garry Wroe]

Actually it has nothing to do with deviancy. Or any degree of it.

Paraphilia has everything to do with deviancy, Errata, or at least those behaviours considered by the great and the good to be grossly abnormal. Were they normative, there would be no departure from the acceptable and thus no deviation. I don't know about the US, but here in the UK people are generally left to get on with things. If someone gets their sexual kicks by drinking their own urine, they'll probably be left alone. If, on the other hand, they get their sexual kicks by forcing someone else to drink their urine, the chances are that they'll experience some form of medico-legal intervention.

I prefaced my reply to Dave by stating that I was dealing with paraphilia in general terms, and in general rather than strictly diagnostic terms a paraphilia will only be considered as such if it causes distress or injury to others. At least, that's the way it is in the UK.

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Garry & all, sorry to insist, but paraphilia seems to be what I said it was. Not that I believe everything from wiki, but...

It probably is if you stick rigidly to DSM IV and other psychiatric manuals, Dave, but personally I never trust any discipline that continues to accept the validity of Freudianism.

Let's try this a different way. Bundy returning to a recently murdered body, decapitating it, then using the head for the purpose of fellatio - that's paraphilia. Albert Fish maintaining a state of hypersexual excitement throughout the nine days during which he cannibalized the body of Grace Budd - that's paraphilia. Peter Sutcliffe inflicting nine hammer blows to the head of a victim and then breaking off the attack in order to assuage his sexual arousal - that's paraphilia.

When citing paraphilia in context of the Whitechapel Murders, I'm referring to the overwhelming likelihood that the killer derived untold sexual gratification from the act of stalking, waylaying, killing and mutilating his victims. And I say overwhelming because we have the evidence for such from many similar cases.

Now does it make sense?

[caz]

Hi All,

The gratification the killer got from the overpowering, killing and mutilation of these women must have been over in a flash - like a hurriedly performed sex act with a street prostitute would have been. In short, the 'fix' he experienced had to be worth it for its own sake: the brevity, the lack of privacy, the risk of discovery, as well as the darkness in which he was compelled to get his jollies.

So I'm not sure that curiosity/exploration of the dead female form could have been what motivated him, simply because he was severely limited in that respect by the conditions. Even if touching and feeling were more important to him than seeing what he was doing, he would have had his work cut out to do much exploring with any of his outdoor victims. No bright lights, soft music or ceiling mirrors there.

But I do see the taking away of bodily parts as an indication that he wasn't satisfied with a quick fix in the dark, and wanted to take the experience home with him, if only to see those parts in better light later, and to know that what had happened had really happened and he had made it happen.

In Mary Kelly's room there was time and light available to see, touch and feel everything in situ, which may explain why body parts that could so easily have been taken away for later attention were left at the scene. If the fix was a truly satisfying one this time, he may not even have thought about 'afters'.

Love,

Caz
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