Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[The Good Michael]

I know for sure that she was also much younger than the others, Mike.

Younger by birth, but not necessarily by appearance. For example, Stride may have looked younger than Kelly as she was slimmer.. just a might have mind you. And for those who think Stride was killed by another hand, it's a non-starter. But then we're left with 4 victims, unless Eddowes was done by a different hand as some speculate. So we're then left with 3 of different ages and of course one would be younger, one older, and one in the middle. Differences, yes, but one could say they all had different sized feet as well. I was referring to obvious and important differences.

Mike

[Ben]

Absolutely, Lynn, but Cox's evidence suggests very strongly that Kelly was neither overly concerned about that, nor seeking to remedy the situation. Compare this with the behaviour of Cox herself who, by her own account, was so concerned that she "owed anything" that she constantly flitted in and out of her room in miserable conditions in search of punters.

Regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

arrears

Hello Ben. Thanks.

Concerning money, there was the long term arrears with McCarthy.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

Or perhaps merely going to bed to get some sleep?

That would be my take on it, Lynn, certainly. It wouldn't have been a furnace by any means, but there would surely have been enough heat from the fire to induce Kelly to shed her outdoor (and possibly rain-sodden) clothes for bed. With regard to the extent of Kelly's concern over money, her behaviour was hardly consistent with panic over lack of funds, if Mary Cox's evidence is anything to go by. She was apparently very dunk at a quarter to midnight, and engaged in a rather extensive period of sing-song before presumably getting down to any pre-arranged business they might have discussed earlier. This hardly seems consistent with financial desperation on her part.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

sleep

Hello Caroline.

"I can't see her taking so many of her clothes off unless she was 'entertaining' and not intending to go out again."

Or perhaps merely going to bed to get some sleep?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Why?

Hello Richard. Seriously, that is a very good point. Why WOULD someone of such a racial background join that group?

Hmmm.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hello Caroline. Then you see her as bringing him there? That's certainly better than him finding her in such an obscure, out of the way, place.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

It seems the most reasonable explanation. It was November and she had been drinking so I can't see her taking so many of her clothes off unless she was 'entertaining' and not intending to go out again. I suspect her last customer offered her enough money to keep McCarthy sweet the next morning. But it appears she never got a penny, and anything she may have made from previous customers that evening (including Blotchy if he wasn't the last) presumably went into her killer's pocket.

I don't know how Harry can say that Kelly had no pressing need of money. She was penniless! She would still have needed to eat the next day - if she had lived.

Love,

Caz
X

[richardnunweek]

Hi
One never knows Lynn, her brother was in the 2ND battalion of the ''Scot's guards'' not normally a first choice regiment for a Irish /Welsh background,
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

Irish no more

Hello Richard.

"So its no surprise that as soon as she saw Hutchinson approach she had the same old line''Can you lend me''."

So MJK was Scots then? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
With regard to Kelly's attitude towards money, like everybody of similar status in the east end of London of that period, one lived on ones wits.
We have oral history of Mary Kelly frequently telling some sob story to obtain money with tales of ''Must pay me rent'' one can imagine her frequenting the kitchens of the local lodging houses, using her looks and youth to get a few extra pennies.
Indeed on elderly lodger told how he she often got money from him but it soon went on drink., indeed Mrs Maxwell said she often saw Mary in the lodging house where she worked[ Maxwell].
So its no surprise that as soon as she saw Hutchinson approach she had the same old line''Can you lend me''.
Its not like she went out especially to obtain money , more of a case of another good soul approaching.
Regards Richard.

[harry]

Mike I was comparing needs.There is no assuming Kelly had a bed and room for the night of her death,unlike Nicholls and Chapman,it is fact.What I find unconvincing,as I would of a person today,Is that it would take uuntill 2AM in the morning before the need for money became overwhelming,but this appears so if Hutchinson is to be believed.

[DVV]

You absolutely don't know what Kelly was thinking about her living situation. This is a huge assumption, Harry. We know Bowyer came around in the morning to collect the rent. We don't know if this was an uncomfortable situation for her, believing she would be tossed out when she, yet again, had no money.

That's true, Mike. Too bad McCarthy wasn't asked if he was about to toss her out.

Or, she had some money from her last customer.

She undoubtedly got some money from Blotchy. Not enough to pay what she (and Barnett ?) owed to McCarthy, though.

Her situation was that she was desperate and needed money.

Yes, but not as desperate as Chapman, I think. At least, she had three men that seemed ready to help her if they could. Or two.

The only difference between her and the others that we know for sure, was that the killer had more space in which to work.

I know for sure that she was also much younger than the others, Mike.

[The Good Michael]

If we shouldn,t compare killers in 1888 to those of today,(I do not ascribe to that)no reason not to compare victims.It is reported that at least Nicholls and Chapman had a pressing need of money to obtain a night's lodging,and supposedly went out into the streets to earn some.Kelly had no such need.She was assured of a room and bed,and there is no indication to suggest that situation was about to end at 2AM the night she was killed.

You absolutely don't know what Kelly was thinking about her living situation. This is a huge assumption, Harry. We know Bowyer came around in the morning to collect the rent. We don't know if this was an uncomfortable situation for her, believing she would be tossed out when she, yet again, had no money. Or, she had some money from her last customer. He situation was that she was desperate and needed money. The only difference between her and the others that we know for sure, was that the killer had more space in which to work.

Mike

[harry]

If we shouldn,t compare killers in 1888 to those of today,(I do not ascribe to that)no reason not to compare victims.It is reported that at least Nicholls and Chapman had a pressing need of money to obtain a night's lodging,and supposedly went out into the streets to earn some.Kelly had no such need.She was assured of a room and bed,and there is no indication to suggest that situation was about to end at 2AM the night she was killed.

[lynn cates]

obscure

Hello Caroline. Then you see her as bringing him there? That's certainly better than him finding her in such an obscure, out of the way, place.

Cheers.
LC