Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Malcolm X]

he also sais, ``no policeman came up dorset st and i saw a man going into lodging house in Dorset st....... but i saw no one else!``..... very odd, he did not see the woman that said she saw him !

how did he miss seeing SL, but managed to see a copper at the end of the road, in near pitch darkness and also that man entering a lodging house

[Simon Wood]

Hi Hunter,

Thank you. I'm much obliged.

It clears up something which has been niggling me.

Regards,

Simon

[Hunter]

Hi Hunter,
Thank you.
Do you have a link to this particular Echo article?
Regards,
Simon

Hi Simon,

Yes, here is the relevant sections with a link to the full article below.
From the Echo, Nov. 14, 1888:

'What is said to be a full and accurate description of the man last seen with Kelly is asserted to be in the possession of the authorities. That description was given them the other night by George Hutchinson, a groom by trade, but now working as a labourer. The importance of that description lies (so say the morning papers) in the fact that it agrees with that furnished to the police yesterday, but which was considerably discounted because the statement of the informant had not been made at the inquest and in a more official manner. There is not, so it is declared, the slightest reason for doubting Hutchinson's veracity.

...Unfortunately for the theories of our morning contemporaries, we learned on inquiry at the Commercial-street Police Station today that the elaborate description given above is virtually the same as previously published. It is a little fuller, that is all. But it proceeds from the same source (my emphasis)...'

http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.php?p=133863&postcount=2

[Wickerman]

Nobody would have been going out at all except in desperation, ...

Desperation was their lot in life Rya, they lived in desperation from waking to sleeping every day.

For example, it is quite unlikely that Mary would have removed all her clothing to go to sleep in those conditions, ....

That is a fair point, and applies to all those unfortunates, yes including Prater.
Most of these women wore all the clothes they owned, they didn't have a closet/wardrobe with spare clothes. Those rooms came furnished so they owned nothing and dare not leave anything in their rooms while out because of the risk of theft.
What I was meaning with Prater was that if some of her clothes were wet I would expect her to take those outer garments off while she slept.
But I don't think it was raining while Prater stood waiting or she would have said so.

Also, I would like very much to know why everyone in the discussion of the Kelly murder takes the mythical cry of "murder" at circa 4 am so seriously. Two witnesses claimed to hear it, two other witnesses didn't. Perhaps the police should have taken a poll of everyone in the court. Oddly, more of them seemed to have heard the poor girl singing ballades a few hours earlier.

And that fact has not gone unnoticed, you might want to check Praters first statement to the press on 10 Nov. she originally said she heard nothing through the night.

"Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window. She affirms that she spoke to the deceased on Thursday. She knew that Kelly had been living with a man, and that they had quarrelled about ten days since. It was a common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home with them. They could do so as they pleased. She had heard nothing during the night, and was out betimes in the morning, and her attention was not attracted to any circumstances of an unusual character."
Daily Telegraph, 10 Nov.

Interesting...

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

murder

Hello Malcolm. Fie! Never read that rot. (heh-heh)

Seriously, not sure what poor old Millen had to do with murder. Trying to prevent one, like as not.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Abby.

"Where do you think Hutch got his "model" or inspiration for A-man?"

From looking dead on at Gen. Francis Millen.

Cheers.
LC

try the tabloid newspapers instead, or even Jekyll and Hyde, bogeyman like that were also in Penny Dreadful.

finally, i expect his types were indeed seen in Petticoat Lane, but definitely not dressed like that AFTER commiting murder

[lynn cates]

Special Branch

Hello Simon. Perhaps a lad from Special Branch tipped them off.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

one in a Millen

Hello Abby.

"Where do you think Hutch got his "model" or inspiration for A-man?"

From looking dead on at Gen. Francis Millen.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

thank God we've got Ben and Garry here, i just cant be bothered with answering all of that rubbish any more, 5 years ago maybe, Wickerman's theory is confusing to read too.

[Sally]

5 is the magic number..

So.. Lewis saw no less than 5 people on her way to Miller's Court that night, late at night (or early in the morning) and in inclement weather.

This almost certainly has no particular significance at all and could have been repeated on any given night in an overstuffed district in Whitechapel where vice was rife - in fact, on a fine night there would've undoubtedly been yet more people for her to see.

And yet curiously, Honest Geo. sees nobody except Kelly, Astroman and a stray copper. Hmm..

As for him having seen and been inspired by the other bogey-parcel-carrying-bloke... all he had to do was read the papers, with which the Victoria Home was well stocked. Or listen to the word on the street. Either would've sufficed.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Hunter,

Thank you.

Do you have a link to this particular Echo article?

Regards,

Simon

[Hunter]

It was actually from Hutchinson's original description. Most of what was circulated early omitted his name. Some of the press got it confused and actually, the Echo, in their afternoon edition caught it, mentioned it and appears to have corrected it.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Times, Wednesday 14th November 1888—

"The description of the murderer given by Hutchinson agrees in every particular with that already furnished by the police and published yesterday morning."

From whom did the police get their original description?

Regards,

Simon

[GregBaron]

Finest threads...

Hi DVV
Not sure exactly what you mean by that response. Anyway:

If one believes Hutch made up A-man (I think he probably did)then the next question, at least for me is, where did he get the inspiration for such a detailed charactor? Some have said from press reports of previous "witness" descriptions , possibly from a previous boss or acquantance he didn't like or was jealous of and i beleive someone even said from a store window clothing display. Considering there seem to be some similarities between A-man and BGman, Gregs post just made me think perhaps Hutch had seen BG man that night also and used him as his fictitious A-man thats all.

Where do you think Hutch got his "model" or inspiration for A-man?

I'm with ya Abby. If Hutch fabricated he probably had a model. He may have seen BG man that night or some other night and just dolled him up for the press. I mean, who better than an ostentatious Jew...


Greg

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby


You serious ?
There was a time we blamed stagnation. Now we enjoy regression.

Hi DVV
Not sure exactly what you mean by that response. Anyway:

If one believes Hutch made up A-man (I think he probably did)then the next question, at least for me is, where did he get the inspiration for such a detailed charactor? Some have said from press reports of previous "witness" descriptions , possibly from a previous boss or acquantance he didn't like or was jealous of and i beleive someone even said from a store window clothing display. Considering there seem to be some similarities between A-man and BGman, Gregs post just made me think perhaps Hutch had seen BG man that night also and used him as his fictitious A-man thats all.

Where do you think Hutch got his "model" or inspiration for A-man?