Who are the mostly likely suspects?

[Rubyretro]

it's the opposite, she died because Barnett/ Fleming weren't around anymore, she was thus for the first time in quite a few weeks, on her own and vulnerable

I totally agree with you on this point, Malcolm.

I don't agree that only Blotchy knew how drunk she was, nor the layout of her room...I should of thought that quite a number of local men knew that (and that Joe had moved out).

[Malcolm X]

In this case Ben is right, there is no better suspect for Mary Kelly's murderer.
.Both the removal of the heart and the lacerations to her face 'might' indicate her murderer was a spurned lover, who then went overboard to make her death look Ripper-like.

Regards, Jon S.

no, because this means that he must have been Eddowes lover as well, because these two murders are committed by the same killer....let alone all the rest.

believe me, MJK was not killed by an ex-lover, she was killed either by someone that noticed her that weekend in the pub, or a few weeks earlier in the pub, or by someone walking past Millers court

it's the opposite, she died because Barnett/ Fleming weren't around anymore, she was thus for the first time in quite a few weeks, on her own and vulnerable, she was probably out boozing and hoping to get blind drunk, when a stranger walked up to her and said...``i've seen you here before, do you mind if i join you``....or similar

he stalked them out in the streets, or in a pub, it's all the same to me, because this is an intelligent person varying his tactics, because you can see that he's varied his tactics anyway, because this one he's killed indoors, so realising this, is to realise that JTR is liable to vary just about anything he wants !!!!!!

except of course............ killing during the week!

dont think she's died because an ex-lover has decided to kill her, now that she's finally alone and that he can finally get to her.

no, she's been murdered because she's on her own and this allows a stranger to engage her one on one; in conversation, and it's far easier to do so, if he's buying her all the drinks she wants !....... this is of course for Blotchy Face only, she is thus very easy to kill later on when she's drunk, if he wants to, even out in the streets !

an ex lover has a huge problem as Blotchy Face..... he can be recognised down the pub, or returning home with her..... i think!

this looks so classic to me, MJK met Blotchy Face in the pub, and they returned home to carry on drinking, but if he's JTR is very hard to say, because he could quite easily be Sailor Boy, or Pipeman/ BS.

Blotchy Face is best placed to kill her, especially if you accept the theory that he left and then returned again at 4am, but i have to say that i'm not happy if he stayed there instead, i think JTR broke in.

if JTR broke in, then only Blotchy knows exactly how drunk she is, exactly the layout of her room, and only he can maybe leave the door slightly open or on the latch...... maybe !

either of the GHs ? yes these two as well.... bloody hell

[Malcolm X]

from 6am onwards, you would have people up and about, because this is when a city wakes up and by 8am this place would be fairly busy... even our hotel in the heart of the New Forest is busy at 7am.

a city never truly sleeps... not really, so a morning mutiation inside Millers court is very risky indeed, just think about it.

i do a sunday art Market in the beautiful city of Winchester, and surprisingly enough this place is dead right up till about 10am, it's very strange indeed, but i very much doubt that Whitechapel is, simply because many residents as they said, were up and about by 8am and probably by 6 to 7am.

[jason_c]

Millers Court was populated mainly, if not wholly, by prostitutes, some of whom, as we know were walking the streets until the small hours. I certainly don't know how busy Millers Court was from 6am onwards but, if the residents were pretty much nocturnal, as seems to have been the case to some extent, how does anyone "know how busy Millers Court is from 6am onwards"?

Perhaps there was little movement before midday. If there is evidence that people were up & about doing their washing etc, then fine but, without it, I'm not so sure.

regards, Bridewell.

We know at least 2 people who knocked at Kelly's door the morning of her murder. This suggests there was some coming and going during these hours. Maxwell claimed to have seen Kelly/someone at 8.30-9.00am. From 6am onwards Millers Court may have been quiet but was far from deserted.

[lynn cates]

Fleming

Hello Jon. Excellent point. And there may also be a political dimension to this. As you recall, a John Fleming was blown up under London Bridge in 1884, along with the Lomasney brothers. And Clan-na-Gael blamed British spies working for Sir Ed Jenkinson for the incident.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Ben,

This is interesting. Can you point me towards the evidence that Fleming was in the habit of abusing MJK?

Regards, Bridewell.

In this case Ben is right, there is no better suspect for Mary Kelly's murderer.

It is precisely because Fleming was said to have been an abuser, and yet she was still fond of him that I have had reservations about Kelly being a Ripper victim all along.
Both the removal of the heart and the lacerations to her face 'might' indicate her murderer was a spurned lover, who then went overboard to make her death look Ripper-like.

Contrary to Ben though, I cannot see why Fleming should be considered as responsible for other deaths as the Whitechapel murderer.

Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Hi Curious,

Yes, if Fleming was responsible, I envisage the sequence of events panning out as you outline. As to the extent of Kelly's potential involvement as a catalyst for his destructive fantasies, it is difficult to say. Serials are often triggered by an event that caused the perpetrator frustration (such as the ending of a job or relationship), and a closer residential proximity to Kelly and Barnett in late '88 may have been a source of inner disquiet, especially if he had ill-used Kelly purely for living wit this other Joe. Strictly speculation, of course. Alternatively, Kelly may have been an intended target for some time, but was previously inaccessible on account of Barnett living with her.

Hi Mal,

As Ruby points out, sadism does not refer exclusively to the inflicting of pain. Post-mortem degradation is also a form of sadism. However quick the killer may have been in dispatching his victims, I doubt very much that this was motivated by a desire to minimise their suffering. More likely, it was done to prevent any screaming, which could have alerted passers-by. The temptation is often to make Jack "special"l, but in reality, there's no reason to separate him from the vast majority of mutilating serial killers, i.e. "lust murderers" and not organ-harvesters. Anti-semitism is only interesting inasmuch as he may have taken advantage of prevalent xenophobia by deflecting suspicion in a false direction, i.e. during the "double-event".

Hi Bridewell,

The "ill-use" reference appears in Julia Venturney's police statement.

All the best,
Ben

[Beowulf]

It was supposed to be raining hard, though. Perhaps that cleared the streets?

[Bridewell]

Millers Court

do you know how busy Millers court is from 6am onwards...... uum i'd think again if i was you....it would be way too busy to meet her, enter her room, butcher her and walk out again, without at least 5 or more women seeing you, both going in and leaving.

residents will be washing themselves via the water pump outside her room, or getting water for their kettles etc/ talking to each other

and there you are inside her room carving her up with all that lot going on outside her window, only 10ft away, no i dont think so.

Millers Court was populated mainly, if not wholly, by prostitutes, some of whom, as we know were walking the streets until the small hours. I certainly don't know how busy Millers Court was from 6am onwards but, if the residents were pretty much nocturnal, as seems to have been the case to some extent, how does anyone "know how busy Millers Court is from 6am onwards"?

Perhaps there was little movement before midday. If there is evidence that people were up & about doing their washing etc, then fine but, without it, I'm not so sure.

regards, Bridewell.

[curious]

Hello Velma. Care to discuss that big picture?

Cheers.
LC

not in public at the moment. Possibly never, if it does not develop -- like a bad and fuzzy negative.

[Bridewell]

Fleming's Abuse

Fleming works considerably better as a suspect than most. If a person who ill-used the most brutally murdered victim in the series, lived in the heart of the murder district, and was committed to a mental asylum for the last 28 years of his life doesn't "work", I'd love someone to suggest a better alternative.

Hi Ben,

This is interesting. Can you point me towards the evidence that Fleming was in the habit of abusing MJK?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

big picture

Hello Velma. Care to discuss that big picture?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

do you know how busy Millers court is from 6am onwards...... uum i'd think again if i was you....it would be way too busy to meet her, enter her room, butcher her and walk out again, without at least 5 or more women seeing you, both going in and leaving.

residents will be washing themselves via the water pump outside her room, or getting water for their kettles etc/ talking to each other

and there you are inside her room carving her up with all that lot going on outside her window, only 10ft away, no i dont think so.

Malcolm,
The scenario you've described would not work.

[Rubyretro]

``purely sadosexual gratification`` is not him at all, i see no evidence of this whatsoever.

Well, you know Malcolm, targeting women selling sex, killing them, mutilating their sexual organs, cutting out uteruses for trophies, displaying them with splayed legs....?

the only Sadism i can think off, is if he's talked to them whilst killing them

It is true that he might not have been the best conversationalist.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Curious and Mal,

If Fleming was responsible for the the murders of Kelly and the others, his "motive" would not have been any different from those of other mutilating serial killers, i.e. purely one of sadoxexual gratification. One of the longest standing myths about serial killers is that they only target strangers, which is certainly not the case. One of Reg Christie's last victims was his wife, but she had very little, if anything, to do with his initial motivation for committing serial murder.

All the best,
Ben

JTR is not killing for the reasons you mention, i'm sure he's not, you have failed to mention Anti-semetism, Organ Harvesting.

``purely sadosexual gratification`` is not him at all, i see no evidence of this whatsoever.

i see a very quick kill and then he's intending to gut the victim, if he can, it's this area that he's targeting and to do so, he has to kill the victim first.

what about the last three then ?.... aaah yes, here he's changing tactics for very good reasons, he's calculated this in the cold light of day

he might not have even said anything to the victim first, not sure, whatever the case i see a quick kill with no Sadistic input at all.

he's killing his victim quite humanely..... however horrible this sounds, because this quick kill is far better than to be poisoned, or to be beaten to death, and should i add to this Stabbed to death like Tabram, yes i think i should....... no JTR is killing them very efficiently, he's not interested in anything Sadistic..... not that i've noticed anyway

the only Sadism i can think off, is if he's talked to them whilst killing them, which i suppose could be the case