Suspects Poll

[Tom_Wescott]

The arrest of tall, dark suspects only means that the individuals in question came to the attention of the police for reasons that were unrelated to their physical appearance. If a tall, dark man is arrested for assaulting a woman (for example), he's hardly going to be released immediately owing to incompatibility with ripper-associated eyewitness descriptions. He would warrant serious investigation in spite of this incompatibility. This does not invalidate the observation that Tumblety is a very poor match for the witness descriptions.

I'm not so sure about that. Pipeman was about 6ft tall, and Lawende's man was 5'9" while slouching. I'm 6'2" and usually have my height guessed at 5'10" to 6ft.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

If you had a sealed envelope in front of you that contained the name of JtR, could you or would you honestly bet a huge amount of money on who it definitely WAS'NT. I know I wouldnt...not even Maybrick.

Absolutely, and I would be right, because I always am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I dont wish to get into the Maybrick arguments on this thread, however I would point out that there is no evidence that the diary is a modern fake as far as I know., but more likely a hoax from the actual period.

Hi Spy. Actually, the opposite is true. Our own Simon Wood is the one who noticed the 'FM' on Mary Kelly's wall in the early 80's, and this is referenced in the Diary. More to the point, a poem in Donald McCormick's book, which he attributed to the Ripper, appears in an altered form in the Diary, and McCormick has since acknowledged that he made that poem up. The full story of that is in the new book by Spiro. There's little doubt but that the Diary was written within a few years of it becoming public.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DavidtheFish]

I am going with James Kelly. He looks alot more like JtR in the few sketches i have seen rather then Kosminsky does(in my opinion), he knew how to use a knife(upholsterer), later in life, he admitted to being in london during that time and I think he could have acted "normal" when conversing with his victims so that they would let their guards down just that bit for him to pounce. Although both were insane, I don't think Kosminsky could have mantained a sane appearance long enough to lure these women to their death. I know I am going to get asked to prove this....but I can only base it on various documentaries I have seen. I await the responses from those more experienced in this subject then me.

[spyglass]

Hi Scott,
I was dreading that question, to be honest it's such a long time ago I read up on him that I really cant remember. I will dust down my old books and refresh my memory and hopefully Those old feelings will return.

[Scott Nelson]

There is something about JK Stephen thats always bothered me but dont ask me why.

What if his spirit asked you why?

[spyglass]

I dont wish to get into the Maybrick arguments on this thread, however I would point out that there is no evidence that the diary is a modern fake as far as I know., but more likely a hoax from the actual period.

Best wishes.

[spyglass]

yes very likely!
But we cant be one hundred percent certain of anything in this case, and I would not be willing to bet my house on it.

[Jonathan H]

The name in the envelope could be Druitt, or Tumblety, or Kosminski, but it could not be Maybrick as that is a shabby, modern-day hoax.

As I understand it the fake diary has a draft of a poem which is actually one of McCormick's hoaxes from the late 50's.

[spyglass]

There is something about JK Stephen thats always bothered me but dont ask me why.
However I have a question for all of you if you can be bothered that is. If you had a sealed envelope in front of you that contained the name of JtR, could you or would you honestly bet a huge amount of money on who it definitely WAS'NT. I know I wouldnt...not even Maybrick.

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,



The arrest of tall, dark suspects only means that the individuals in question came to the attention of the police for reasons that were unrelated to their physical appearance. If a tall, dark man is arrested for assaulting a woman (for example), he's hardly going to be released immediately owing to incompatibility with ripper-associated eyewitness descriptions. He would warrant serious investigation in spite of this incompatibility. This does not invalidate the observation that Tumblety is a very poor match for the witness descriptions.

I'm also not convinced that Tumblety conforms as closely as you suggest to a psychopathic personality. Do we really have any great insight into Tumblety's ability or otherwise "to love"?

Just I aside here, but I wonder how many of the 20 people who voted for "other/unknown" had the same specific "other" in mind?

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Excellent points, but of course I disagree with you. That fact that they followed through with arresting tall men, demonstrates that them focusing primarily upon specific suspect witness descriptions got them nowhere. Again, there are no suspect descriptions of anyone doing the actual killing. In the case of Tumblety, certain articles do demonstrate he was suspected. Notice the first one even has Inspector Byrnes basically admitting Scotland Yard suspected Tumblety:


New York World (U.S.A.), 4 December 1888
Inspector Byrnes was asked what his object in shadowing Twomblety. "I simply wanted to put a tag on him." he replied, "so that we can tell where he is. Of course, he cannot be arrested, for there is no proof in his complicity in the Whitechapel murders, and the crime for which he was under bond in London is not extaditable."

The Evening World, December 3, 1888
…The London police are anxiously searching for samples of his handwriting to compare with that of “Jack the Ripper.”

We actually do have insight in Tumblety’s ability to love. One is in all of his life, we see none. Even in the gay community, we find partners. Another is his passion for Caine in the 1870s. A closer look at this relationship is quite revealing.

Sincerely,
Mike

[tji]

I have voted other for Jacob Levy - anyone surprised by this at all

Tj

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Another one is that Tumblety does not match witness descriptions, which in my opinion is wrong since multiple newspaper articles talk about Scotland Yard arresting tall/dark suspects (also, witness descriptions vary, especially since no one actually saw anyone killing and the witness description just might be an innocent punter

The arrest of tall, dark suspects only means that the individuals in question came to the attention of the police for reasons that were unrelated to their physical appearance. If a tall, dark man is arrested for assaulting a woman (for example), he's hardly going to be released immediately owing to incompatibility with ripper-associated eyewitness descriptions. He would warrant serious investigation in spite of this incompatibility. This does not invalidate the observation that Tumblety is a very poor match for the witness descriptions.

I'm also not convinced that Tumblety conforms as closely as you suggest to a psychopathic personality. Do we really have any great insight into Tumblety's ability or otherwise "to love"?

Just I aside here, but I wonder how many of the 20 people who voted for "other/unknown" had the same specific "other" in mind?

All the best,
Ben

[mklhawley]

Hi all,

If I was forced to pick someone, my choice would be Francis Tumblety. Why? Not for just one reason, but for many. Here’s a couple:

1. My early plans were evaluate Tumblety and then discount him once I was convinced that the evidence against him demonstrated this and then go to the next suspects (Druitt and then Kosminski), but I then saw cracks in the evidence against him (too flamboyant, too tall, too gay, too chicken, too big of a mustache, too much of a publicity hound, etc. –all are misconceptions about Tumblety). At the time, I had no idea about the Parnell conspiracy argument, which would have been convincing. Another one is that Tumblety does not match witness descriptions, which in my opinion is wrong since multiple newspaper articles talk about Scotland Yard arresting tall/dark suspects (also, witness descriptions vary, especially since no one actually saw anyone killing and the witness description just might be an innocent punter).

2. The murders stopped once he jumped bail and made his way across the Atlantic. Scotland Yard could not extradite Tumblety from the US, so they lost their man. Why advertise this? Even with this, Scotland Yard NEVER denied Tumblety as a suspect.

3. He was Scotland Yard’s prime suspect at the peak of the murders as per Chief Inspector Littlechild (a man privy to more information that almost everyone), as per the actions of Anderson seeking information on him from the States at the exact time Tumblety was in jail in November, as per Canadian Deputy Minister Marine Smith, and as per the actions of Inspector Andrews traveling to Canada.

4. William Pinkerton’s comments about Tumblety (Nov 20, 1888) -a man he knew since the Civil War- having a SIGNIFICANT HATRED OF WOMEN was only a day after those in the US knew Tumblety was arrest for the Whitechapel murders (Nov 18 in San Francisco and Nov 19 in the rest of the US). Pinkerton was at Scotland Yard during the first of the murders (especially since Scotland Yard considered the April 1888 murder along with the early August murder coming from an unusual killer). Keep in mind, this Pinkerton interview occurred when the world still thought Scotland Yard was holding Tumblety. For me, this is powerful evidence to show that Pinkerton remembered Tumblety and remembered his unusual hatred of women.

5. Around 2005, the anti-Tumblety wave began thanks to convincing anti-Tumblety articles published around this time. Many of those reasons to reject Tumblety as a suspect are now suspect themselves thanks to further research, such as Roger Palmer’s material and others. For example, the Parnell conspiracy –an answer to explain why Inspector Andrews came to Canada other than for gaining information on Francis Tumblety-. The biggest problem I have with this is that the conspiracy requires Scotland Yard officials up and down the chain of command to knowingly violate British law. It would seem to me that someone by now would have spilled their guts on this blatant illegal conspiracy, yet it never happened. So for me, the only viable reason Andrews came over to the US during the peak of the murders was because a serious JTR suspect. Also, the argument that Andrews went to Toronto (and not NYC) for Tumblety but Tumblety was not in Toronto for decades. We have only now discovered (thanks to Palmer) that in fact, Tumblety was in Toronto multiple times in the 1880s and even in 1888.

6. US newspapers explained in unusual and informed detail that Scotland Yard suspected him of being involved in the Whitechapel murders but arrested him on gross indecency charges (to hold him), since officials had no significant JTR evidence (They had none on anyone, since no one saw the murders). Some claim those same newspapers were merely practicing sensationalist journalism, but they fail to take into account these newspapers were actually disregarding Tumblety being the murderer –a position quite counter to exciting sensationalist journalism. …keeping in mind Scotland Yard never denied Tumblety being a suspect.

7. Tumblety fits each and every element of a psychopath and narcissist, such as lack of remorse, pathological liar, vindictive, creation of a façade, lack of friends, inability to love, travels frequently, etc.

These are just a few of the reasons. Jonathan, someday I'll get to Druitt!

Sincerely,
Mike

[lynn cates]

Monty

Hello Jonathan. Well, I must say that Monty Druitt is doing well for himself, at least according to the numbers at this point.

I hope only that you are correct, as he is MUCH more interesting than most of the lot. A fascinating and complex man.

Cheers.
LC