A general consensus as to what the Ripper may have looked like?

[Sister Hyde]

Must seem I'm the contrary type, SH.

But,

I don't go along with the idea there was hysteria in Whitechapel.

I think prostitutes would have gone anywhere providing the prospective punter had a few bob on him - and it seems prostitutes did.

We know MJK took at least 1 person to her home.

I know what you mean, but it was mentioned that the prostitutes started to be more on their guard during the scare, and then after some weeks passed, things were normal again. Which can fit the case of MJK.

[GregBaron]

They'll be gone in a second...

Not my style, mate. I'm usually out on Clapham Common at 1.30 in the morning.

Just having some fun Fleetwood Mac although I don't know what this means....?

Doesn't it seem most likely that Eddowes went to play ring around the rosy at St. Botolph's Church to nail a client..........from there a quick jaunt to Mitre Square..........this must have been a known nearby spot for many of the ladies...this also supports your theory Fleetwood............the only reason I can think of for them dawdling in Church passage was they were waiting for an all clear...........someone must have been in the square.....another working girl perhaps? The night watchman? A Giant Rat?

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

Just having some fun Fleetwood Mac although I don't know what this means....?

I know, Greg. If you don't know what it means, then no use in me filling you in as I won't see you there for some 'fun'.

someone must have been in the square.....another working girl perhaps? The night watchman? A Giant Rat?

Greg

That's a very good point. If Eddowes was taking punters there, then she won't have been the only one. I suppose the problem with that is they could have moved onto another spot nearby.

According to Morris, he didn't open his door until 2-3 minutes prior to Watkins knocking at 1.44. Could it be that he disturbed JTR (if Morris is to be believed)? At the very least he must have been getting ready to leave or had just left. Who knows, maybe JTR was set for a MJK, but when he saw Morris open the door ajar and realised someone was active close by, he quickly wrapped the organs in the cloth and bolted before having the time to wipe his knife? Ahhhhh, just musings.

[Sister Hyde]

Just having some fun Fleetwood Mac although I don't know what this means....?

Doesn't it seem most likely that Eddowes went to play ring around the rosy at St. Botolph's Church to nail a client..........from there a quick jaunt to Mitre Square..........this must have been a known nearby spot for many of the ladies...this also supports your theory Fleetwood............the only reason I can think of for them dawdling in Church passage was they were waiting for an all clear...........someone must have been in the square.....another working girl perhaps? The night watchman? A Giant Rat?

Greg

maybe it was haggis hunt night! I wasn't talking about playing"ring around the rosy", but more like, going to places they were used too and commonly used as "safer". but the couple standing there to discuss prices and so on or standing there to wait for the square to be clear are possible options too.

[GregBaron]

Oops wrong turn...

I know, Greg. If you don't know what it means, then no use in me filling you in as I won't see you there for some 'fun'.

When I make it over the pond Fleetwood you can show me the fun spots....can hardly wait....

maybe it was haggis hunt night! I wasn't talking about playing"ring around the rosy", but more like, going to places they were used too and commonly used as "safer".

If this is true Sister Hyde it was obviously a complete failure...

That's a very good point. If Eddowes was taking punters there, then she won't have been the only one. I suppose the problem with that is they could have moved onto another spot nearby.

I wonder how many other spots there were nearby Fleetwood? And I don't mean to be crude but it couldn't have been unusual to walk up upon a couple indulging in the dirty deed...this had to be embarrassing presumbably to both parties..........I guess it's progress that we now have these things called cars...

According to Morris, he didn't open his door until 2-3 minutes prior to Watkins knocking at 1.44. Could it be that he disturbed JTR (if Morris is to be believed)? At the very least he must have been getting ready to leave or had just left. Who knows, maybe JTR was set for a MJK, but when he saw Morris open the door ajar and realised someone was active close by, he quickly wrapped the organs in the cloth and bolted before having the time to wipe his knife? Ahhhhh, just musings.

Nothing wrong with idle speculation Fleetwood but I think he knew he didn't have time to perform an MJK........he probably knew Watkins was due back soon.....


Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

When I make it over the pond Fleetwood you can show me the fun spots....can hardly wait....

You're on, providing you return the favour - visit some of those civil war sites and Charlestown and the like.

I wonder how many other spots there were nearby Fleetwood? And I don't mean to be crude but it couldn't have been unusual to walk up upon a couple indulging in the dirty deed...this had to be embarrassing presumbably to both parties..........I guess it's progress that we now have these things called cars...

Hmmm, I suppose any back alley or quiet spot would have done the trick.

Not sure how embarrassing when they're all boozed right up to the eyeballs!

Nothing wrong with idle speculation Fleetwood but I think he knew he didn't have time to perform an MJK........he probably knew Watkins was due back soon.....

Really?

Well, he's chatting at 1.35am like he's out for a midnight stroll walking the dog and not a care in the world. Let's assume he knows Watkin will be back 1.44ish. Now that is a man with a brass neck - to think in a 9 minute less further chat time with Eddowes and walk to the spot period that he could kill her carve her up and wander off. I wonder if he walked round the square twice before making off just to push his luck!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Greg,

The other thing with this:

Let's say he knows Watkin will return at 1.44.

He's still chatting at 1.35.

Let's say they enter the square at 1.36. Half a minute to get to the spot and kill.

Half a minute to cut the cloth, gather the organs and wrap them up.

That gives him 7 minutes.

If he's working to Watkin's return, then how does he know when his 7 minutes are up?

Presumably he doesn't have a watch.

Time flies when you're having fun as they say - how can he guage it? How can he tell the difference between say 5, 7, 9 minutes? How can he be sure he isn't going to overrun his time?

The sensible conclusion is that he worked to footsteps and other noises, and made his escape when he heard someone approaching.

Also, JTR positions himself not far from where Watkin enters the square, and where he can be seen by Harvey if he shines his lamp when he enters from Church Passage. If JTR knew the beats, wouldn't it have been wise to have positioned himself in the opposite corner where no policeman would have entered the square?

[Wickerman]

Hi Sister
If I am not mistaken, Lawende never identified or even saw the body. Only identified the clothing as being like he saw the women wearing when he saw them outside mitre square.

I have always had my doubts if lawende and company saw the ripper with Eddowes. He was the only witness to describe a "suspect" with fair hair.

You prettymuch encapsulated my thoughts entirely. The strength of Lawende's description appears to rest soley on his belief that the clothes he was shown belonged to Eddowes.
Women of those times dressed very similar. The clothes may not have belonged to Eddowes, the woman he saw may not have been Eddowes.
Lawende's description makes for extremely slender evidence.

I thought it was normal proceedure for the jury, prior to the commencement of the inquest, to view both the crime scene, & the body at the mortuary.
Strange that we know of no instance where Lawende was asked to view the body, perhaps because he did not see her face. However, as a witness for the inquiry Lawende may have seen her body at the mortuary.
We have no indication surviving in print that Lawende recognised her as the woman he saw, or not.

Regards, Jon S.

[Sister Hyde]

Hi Greg,

Well, if you believe the Ripper was a local or someone who knew the district, and that he might have been a regular prostitute client, it wouldn't be so strange that it would fail.

Hi FM,

"Well, he's chatting at 1.35am like he's out for a midnight stroll walking the dog and not a care in the world. Let's assume he knows Watkin will be back 1.44ish. Now that is a man with a brass neck - to think in a 9 minute less further chat time with Eddowes and walk to the spot period that he could kill her carve her up and wander off. I wonder if he walked round the square twice before making off just to push his luck!"

Well if you do believe that the GSG was genuine, it would mean he "pushed" his luck veeery far.

[Phil H]

On timings, I'd like to propose a slightly different scenario to that which many like to contemplate.

Let's accept (for a moment) that the man and woman Lawende saw, was "Jack" and Eddowes.

Let's also accept that Stride was not a victim of JtR, so he does not have any time constraints in moving north from Berners St to the Aldgate area.

That gives "Jack" abundant time either to encounter Eddowes, by chance (it could have been any woman) on her release from the cells, engage her in conversation, be propositioned, or proposition her, and then have her lead him to the Square.

They reach the end of the passage, when "Jack" hears three men approaching, rather than continue into the Square, he pulls Eddowes back into the shadows (which might explain the position in which they were seen) close together with her hand on his chest. It would be a perfectly normal gesture, the hand pushing the waoman AWAY from such close contact with a relatively unknown man.

Once the three men have passed, the couple go into the Square and "Jack" strikes.

I recognise that this is suppositional, playing with ideas, but note that we now do not have to contemplate "Jack" rapidly convincing Eddowes to go with him - all that has been done earlier. It makes even more sense in the (probably unlikely) event that they met by prior arrangement.

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

On timings, I'd like to propose a slightly different scenario to that which many like to contemplate.

Let's accept (for a moment) that the man and woman Lawende saw, was "Jack" and Eddowes.

Let's also accept that Stride was not a victim of JtR, so he does not have any time constraints in moving north from Berners St to the Aldgate area.

That gives "Jack" abundant time either to encounter Eddowes, by chance (it could have been any woman) on her release from the cells, engage her in conversation, be propositioned, or proposition her, and then have her lead him to the Square.

They reach the end of the passage, when "Jack" hears three men approaching, rather than continue into the Square, he pulls Eddowes back into the shadows (which might explain the position in which they were seen) close together with her hand on his chest. It would be a perfectly normal gesture, the hand pushing the waoman AWAY from such close contact with a relatively unknown man.

Once the three men have passed, the couple go into the Square and "Jack" strikes.

I recognise that this is suppositional, playing with ideas, but note that we now do not have to contemplate "Jack" rapidly convincing Eddowes to go with him - all that has been done earlier. It makes even more sense in the (probably unlikely) event that they met by prior arrangement.

Phil

It's not a stupid scenario, even if they didn't meet by prior arrangement.

[Phil H]

It's not a stupid scenario, even if they didn't meet by prior arrangement.

Why thank you, Sister!!

[Sister Hyde]

I've always had my doubts on Stride being a Ripper victim, so of course, I like the idea.

[kensei]

Wow, this thread caught fire and spread quickly in one day and I have just now seen it. My thoughts on any question as to what the Ripper looked like have always been- male caucasian late twenties to early thirties, medium build, average height below six feet, moustache, wearing a dark overcoat and a cap. This is all people were able to recall in cases where they glimpsed something for a fleeting instant that they had no idea would be important later and so they took little notice, in poor lighting conditions where even such things as complexion and color of hair and clothing might be uncertain. I've stated that I am a traditional C5 supporter, and from that standpoint I feel that the witnesses in the Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes cases could have easily been describing the same man in the same general outfit. I think a "peaked cap" and a "deerstalker cap" could be one and the same given the conditions described above. Schwartz was the only witness who actually saw an assault going down and he was most concerned with getting the heck out of there, and Lawende saw no reason at the time of his sighting to place any importance on it. I think their subsequent recollections of what they saw were close enough to be describing the same man. Elizabeth Long's sighting on Hanbury Street is also general enough to be of the same man in the same outfit- a 30-ish moustached man in a dark coat and a cap. We only run into trouble with Hutchinson's Astrakan Man, and that's a whole other area of discussion.

I've stated elsewhere that I think it most likely that the Ripper was someone who's never been named, but if not then James Kelly is my favorite suspect. He was born in 1860- 28 at the time of the murders, and sporting a moustache. I do not find it impossible that Long, Schwartz, and Lawende were all describing him. Probable? No, just not impossible.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I've always had my doubts on Stride being a Ripper victim, so of course, I like the idea.

Others have argued that the probablity of two murderers killing in such a short space of time makes it likely that Stride was JTR's - I've argued this in the past, too.

On reflection, though, a more appropriate comparison is comparing the likelihood of two murderers in a such a short space of time with one murderer killing once and 12 minutes away killing again. Both are highly unusual instances of human behaviour.