Grassed-Up?

[lynn cates]

scholar

Hello Phil. An eminent scholar is not a bad idea. My main concern would be whether s/he knew what to look for.

Cheers.
LC

[Chris]

The fact that the information has been made available previously, and seemigly without limitation - MIGHT be a factor in the Information Commissioner's final judgement. It has been before now?

It wasn't made available to Butterfield without limitation - they wanted him to promise not to publish or communicate the information to anyone else before he could have access.

[Phil H]

In my experience archives and libraries holding sensitive material - emargoed by its private owners perhaps, fragile or (certainly in the past) the Royal archives, have been prepared to give exceptional access to those with proven credentials - usually a post-graduate level degree; written references etc.

Someone like Sugden could well have the correct qualifications and his book is essentially a personal reference in itself. Certainly, whomever it was would ahve to prepare themselves fully.

But only time will tell. Let's hope the FOI request is successful.

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Is there not a precedent for this, with this very information? A thesis (I forget the name - Clutterbuck?) and Butterfield.

Hello Phil H,

Did you mean Alex Butterworth, not Butterfield?

best wishes

Phil

[jason_c]

In my experience archives and libraries holding sensitive material - emargoed by its private owners perhaps, fragile or (certainly in the past) the Royal archives, have been prepared to give exceptional access to those with proven credentials - usually a post-graduate level degree; written references etc.

Someone like Sugden could well have the correct qualifications and his book is essentially a personal reference in itself. Certainly, whomever it was would ahve to prepare themselves fully.

But only time will tell. Let's hope the FOI request is successful.

Phil

Not much hope for Trevor Marriot then.

[TomTomKent]

It is worth noting that the Mail has a reputationfor misrepresenting or misquoting stories like this (see some of the stories in which they have claimed something is banned, or their fascinationwith classifying everything as a cause or cure of cancer). The press releases or other primary sources maybe worth tracking down.

[Phil H]

You are right, of course. I was typing in haste between other tasks. Thanks for the correction.

Phil

[mariab]

Did you mean Alex Butterworth, not Butterfield?

Alex Butterworth got misinformed by the court or something and missed the appeal (for access to the SB ledgers), then he decided not to re-appeal so as not to miss the deadline for his book.
Clutterbuck consulted the SB ledgers and reported that they contain mentions of the Ripper case investigation. Clutterbuck's thesis used to be available online.

[HollyDolly]

Grassed-Up?

Something doesn't smell right.It's been 124 years. Think about all the people who have commited crimes,like John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer and others in the US and elsewhere.No one worries about their relatives,or in the case of people like Albert Speer,Rudolf Hess and other high ranking nazis about their children or grandchildren either. Why be so secretive,unless it was a member of the royal family or someone else.Wasn't there the words written on a wall or fence by one of the victims,the words"The Juwes are not the ones who will be blamed for nothing?Orders were given to have it erased at the time of discovery if I recall.Could the Ripper have been a member of the Rothschild family pershap? Why should some british muslims today care what some infidel did to loose women so long ago? The whole thing smells.Maybe we need to check other british news services or Scotland Yard themselves in regards to the Daily Mail article.And if it WAS recorded correctly, then there is indeed some sort of cover up still going on of someone's very powerful family.

[Phil H]

Sheer foolishness, HelloDolly!!

I assume you are not being serious.

Criminals are tried openly, hence their names are in the public domain (whether war criminals or murderers) so your analogy is absurd and misplaced if mean seriously.

On the other hand, the identity of rape victims is often protected by the courts in the UK.

It's been 124 years.

Not long in family terms, granschildren could still be alive.

Why be so secretive,unless it was a member of the royal family or someone else.

Because there are issues about release - a risk that lives could be put in danger. There are still sectarian killings in Northern Ireland. there is also a question of precedents being set - the possibility that if Government's are known to release confidential personal details, people now might be less prepared to release information to government.

Wasn't there the words written on a wall or fence by one of the victims...

You refer to a graffito found by a scrap of Eddowes' apron (she was a victim). It has been alleged but never proven that JtR wrote the words (on which there is no agreement). A VICTIM did not write the graffito!!

Could the Ripper have been a member of the Rothschild family pershap?

You tell me, since you put the theory forward. My answer would be no. JtR was probably a local man. The "toff" hypothesis has long been fatally wounded.

Why should some british muslims today care what some infidel did to loose women so long ago?

Where do muslims come into this discussion? The risks from release of information relate to Fenian (Irish) issues and other considerations about the conduct of government (effective operation of security forces, and trust in government.

The whole thing smells.

Why? This is an unfounded supposition.

Hope this throws light in dim places.

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Alex Butterworth got misinformed by the court or something and missed the appeal (for access to the SB ledgers), then he decided not to re-appeal so as not to miss the deadline for his book.
Clutterbuck consulted the SB ledgers and reported that they contain mentions of the Ripper case investigation. Clutterbuck's thesis used to be available online.

Hello Maria,

Actually, from what I understand, Alex Butterworth was not informed at all about the date of the appeal. Hence, he never appeared, and could not say anything in his case defence.

best wishes

Phil

[TomTomKent]

As well as the issues Phil H pointed out Dolly, you have to remember that any accussations put forward by informants would not have to be true to be believed true by some people. Justy look at the suppossition you seem willing to believe based on such a flimsy story; it is a cover up, something stinks, it must be such-and-such a family. Just look at firmly some people believe myths of health and safety gone mad, or muslims closing swimming pools, let alone the rubbish that some will believe about wheat grass, 9/11, reptoids or anything else with out checking evidence or raw data. There will always be somebody who thinks somebody else saying something is proof it is true. A lack of supporting evidence becomes evidence of a conspiracy, and rational thinking flies out of the window.

There are good reasons for people to be very wary of releasing information that have nothing to do if the story will be true or not.

[Cuervo]

Iīm not a policeman, and I donīt live in Uk (i did it before), but I suppose Scotland Yard, same as other police bodies in the world, have different groups. If you work on minors, you donīt work on wife assault (for instance). Are they going to take people from terrorism to work on JTR? I seriously doubt it, and if they do it, why not to take them from other divisions?
To talk about terrorism is the best way to shut mouths, because it is what scares people most

[The Grave Maurice]

I've never had much use for Marriot because he doesn't write very well and his opinions are often, well, odd. But, if he is successful in this application, even if the documents don't tell us anything new, he will rise in my estimation.

[mariab]

Hello Maria,
Actually, from what I understand, Alex Butterworth was not informed at all about the date of the appeal. Hence, he never appeared, and could not say anything in his case defence.

Hello Phil,
Yes, that's precisely how I responded to this in the SB ledgers thread.

I've never had much use for Marriot because he doesn't write very well and his opinions are often, well, odd. But, if he is successful in this application, even if the documents don't tell us anything new, he will rise in my estimation.

Could've come out of my mouth verbatim.