John Douglas´ Profile

[Radical Joe]

6 ft tall and gay. You are describing the suspect - who was living in Whitechapel at the time of the murders - Frances Tumblety!

Siobhán

Well, considering the fact that Celee has long considered Tumblety as his number one suspect, that's hardly accidental is it.

And this is the problem with amateur profiling (and objections to others profiles) in particular. Celee's post may have been tongue-in-cheek, but too many 'Ripperologists' are more concerned with creating/agreeing with a profile that fits thier already chosen suspect than even attempting to look at it objectively. By the same token, someone comes along with a profile that dosen't fit the 'Ripperologists' already chosen suspect, and that someone obviously dosen't know what they're talking about.

I don't set a great store on profiles personally, but I would sooner trust one coming from a dispassionate party, with experience and a wealth of statistical information to call on, than someone who's already identified (and who's reputation might depend upon) a particular suspect. The professional's profile may not be accurate, but at least I can be confident it was created objectively (or, as far as any exercise involving human input can be objective) over one drawn up by someone with a vested interest in a particular conclusion.

A wilful subjectivity has been the bane of research in this field for far too long.

[Jdombrowski89]

Hello Cuervo,

First of all, welcome to the forums

Second I agree with pretty much everything SSA John E. Douglas said in his Criminal Investigative Analysis. It was thorough and well done.

Though many will refute this because many hold their opinion above those of experience with these kinds of killers.

Corey

Corey,

I actually disagree with some of Douglas's viewpoints on the JTR profile. I like reading some of his books, but unfortunately 75% of John Douglas's books are on....John Douglas. I believe the profile could be updated with more knowledge we've obtained not only from other serial killers, but with JTR material as well.

Regards,
Justin

[The Grave Maurice]

Interesting piece in the MailOnline today about Douglas. If you missed it, here's the link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...=feeds-newsxml

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi GM

I saw this elsewhere and laughed out loud. Secret FBI profile? The profile states quite clearly that it was done "At the request of Cosgrove-Meurer Productions." They were the television company that did The Secret Identity of Jack the Ripper hosted by Peter Ustinov back in 1988. This is the profile that Douglas read out on the show so it was only a secret between the FBI and the millions of people world wide who watched the show or who own a VHS/DVD copy.

Shhhhh. Don't tell anybody.

Wolf.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi GM

I saw this elsewhere and laughed out loud. Secret FBI profile? The profile states quite clearly that it was done "At the request of Cosgrove-Meurer Productions." They were the television company that did The Secret Identity of Jack the Ripper hosted by Peter Ustinov back in 1988. This is the profile that Douglas read out on the show so it was only a secret between the FBI and the millions of people world wide who watched the show or who own a VHS/DVD copy.

Shhhhh. Don't tell anybody.

Wolf.

Hi Wolf

The other thing that perplexes me is why this FBI profile suddenly has become "news" in the Mail and in The Sun, when the profile has been readily available on the FBI website for years.

Chris

[GregBaron]

Profile Schmofile........

I don't think I'm the only one here skeptical of profiling....in fact I remember us thrashing this about some time ago....while I think all tools are needed to capture these atrocious murderers remember this is only one tool of many and one of questionable worth as well. As someone once pointed out, taking what we've learned in the last 20 years and extrapolating back 120 years is definitely a tactic of questionable value.....Societal input variables are certainly far different...........as I believe someone else also pointed out, profiling has yet to catch anyone....In addition, undeniably as a cynical example, I remember about 10 years ago when a sniper was killing people in the Virginia area, naturally the profilers said look for a middle aged disgruntled loner militia type white guy.............turned out to be 2 black guys, one a juvenile.............case rested.


Greg

[Scorpio]

Douglas and Hazelwood's JtR profile was suppossed to provide a simplified example of profiling to the public. The organised/disorganised criteria was only lightly touched upon. A real investigation would be much more thorough than this PR exercise, but most of it is quite accurate i believe.

[GregBaron]

Serial on Long Island...

Here's some more fuel for the fire you all............Apparently JTR is still disorganized!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/nyregion/long-island-serial-killer-gets-a-personality-profile.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Here's some more fuel for the fire you all............Apparently JTR is still disorganized!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/ny...nted=1&_r=1&hp

A fascinating article on the Long Island Killer - well worth reading with its comparisons to other serial killers modern and historical. So thanks for the reference.

The only downside in the article's analysis is that according to one of the "experts" quoted in the article, disorganised serial killers are easier to catch and JtR is a good example. But JtR was never caught...yes, indeed.

[GregBaron]

Which is he?

Agreed Siobhan,

I remember a heated debate here in the past concerning JTR's organization/disorganization. I believe you can make fairly good arguments on either side. That articles was interesting but I found it amusing that they labeled JTR disorganized as if it was a shut case. I guess he was organized enough to not get caught and make fools of everyone................!


Greg

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Agreed Siobhan,

I remember a heated debate here in the past concerning JTR's organization/disorganization. I believe you can make fairly good arguments on either side. That articles was interesting but I found it amusing that they labeled JTR disorganized as if it was a shut case. I guess he was organized enough to not get caught and make fools of everyone................!


Greg

Hi Greg,
Corey, who has already posted on this thread, wrote a very good article on the escalation of JtR's violence during the timeframe of the 5 canonical victims in a recent edition of the Examiner. It suggests that JtR may have started out fairly organised or in control, but he lost the run of himself somewhat by the time of MJK's murder which was frenzied (and perhaps a bit disorganised?) So he was a bit of both - espcially as he outwitted his pursuers.

[GregBaron]

Both

Agreed again Siobhan,

I don' t think Jack would be the first to start to lose it and get sloppy......and I do believe he was a bit of both....I'll have to read Corey's article.... sounds like a good one....


Greg

[Cuervo]

Hi to all
I repeat again, there´s lots of good work and scientific research behind Profiling. There are more profilers in the world than Doouglas, Ressler, etc. I recomend again the works of Cristina Soeiro in Portugal and Vicente Garrido in Spain (for instance). And I know there is a good group of criminologists working with the police in South Africa doing excellent research. I mean, there are different ways of doing profiling, and not everyone does it as if we were living constantly in a Hollywood movie.

And about the organized and disorganized category...I thought it was something totally obsolet and most of serial killers were a mixed category
Best

PS: I´ll read your article Corey

[Cuervo]

Just to explain that I don´t despise at all the jobs of the big name of the FBI, but sometimes they were not very scientific, that´s what I pretend to mean.

[Wickerman]

So lets play, Profile the Ripper.

"There were nine killings in the series. How many are likely to have been slain by the same hand, that of the man we now call Jack the Ripper?
Popular report at the time credited him with all nine. But detectives and surgeons who worked on the case held widely divergent views.

At the extremes Inspector Reid attributed all nine murders to the Ripper and Superintendent Arnold felt that he was responsible for no more than four, apparently those of Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Kelly." (p.357)

Dr Phillips involved in six post-mortems discounted McKenzie & Coles, and had serious doubts about Eddowes.

McNaghten thought the Ripper slew Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly.
Abberline & Anderson agreed with the above, but included Tabram.

Dr Bond agreed with Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes, but thought to include Kelly & McKenzie based on similarity of the wounds.

Quotes and paraphrasing from, The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, Philip Sugden, 1995, pp 356/7 .



"After careful & long deliberation I cannot satisfy myself on purely anatomical & professional grounds, that the perpetrator of all the Whitechapel murders is one man. I am on the contrary impelled to a contrary conclusion in this, noting the mode of procedure & the character of the mutilations & judging of motive in connection with the latter"
Dr Geo. Phillips, July 22, 1889, MEPO 3/140, f. 270.

The challenge, should you choose to accept it, is, if Profiling is objective, as opposed to subjective, which do we include/exclude and why?

Regards, Jon S.