John Douglasī Profile

[Errata]

How many of those abused choirboys turned into serial killers?

Zero!

That we know of. Regardless of whether or not there is a causal relationship between sexual abuse and serial killing, it is not wholly out of the question that there is a serial killer running around out there who was molested by a priest.

[Barnaby]

This is related to something called the diathesis-stress model of psychological disorders. It is a reasonable assumption that there is a genetic component (diathesis) that puts some at risk of becoming serial killers. Of course it hasn't been identified although most likely it is a combination of genes usually including those on the Y chromosome Anyway, in the (hopefully) small portion of the population at risk, a trigger (such as child abuse) is necessary or else the pattern of behavior will remain unexpressed. Likewise, even intense child abuse will not create a serial killer in those without the biological risk factor. Genes put people in the "potential" serial killer category and stressors determine which of those actually become serial killers.

It's just like depression. We know from twin and family studies that the heritability coefficient is strong. But, a person at a high risk for depression might never become depressed if not exposed to an environmental stimulus to trigger it.

[Cuervo]

Hy Barnaby and Errata,
So we agree with the biological factor. The "disagreement" comes from the weight each of us puts on it (in my case, sometimes more than anything else as I think sometimes envioronment has nothing to do with some traits).
Well, I would like to ask you for your opinion on another thing, and in this case I have to regconize it is not with the porpouse of creating debate but to really learn a bit of the matter. My question is about the group of friends. I know serial killers have been shown as loners when teenagers and when adults, (appart from Gacy, for example, who was "a star"). Do you think there may be an influence from the group of friends in terms of pairs who approve of antisocial behaviour?

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hy Barnaby and Errata,
So we agree with the biological factor. The "disagreement" comes from the weight each of us puts on it (in my case, sometimes more than anything else as I think sometimes envioronment has nothing to do with some traits).
Well, I would like to ask you for your opinion on another thing, and in this case I have to regconize it is not with the porpouse of creating debate but to really learn a bit of the matter. My question is about the group of friends. I know serial killers have been shown as loners when teenagers and when adults, (appart from Gacy, for example, who was "a star"). Do you think there may be an influence from the group of friends in terms of pairs who approve of antisocial behaviour?

Hi Cuervo,
The question might be : Did the serial killers have others who colluded with the crimes or who turned a blind eye? I find it very difficult to believe that those closest to the killers knew absolutely nothing of the crimes - for example, if they had a woman (mistress, wife) in their lives - no matter how dysfunctional that relationship happened to be. Surely that person knew something? I feel the same way about child molesters (paedophiles) who commit their crimes in the family home. In most cases, the spouse claims they had "no idea" what was happening which is incredible to say the least.
On serial killers who may have had associates or family to assist them: for example, Robert Pickton (Canadian serial killer) may have had help from his brother who grew up in the same dysfunctional family environment. When questioned by police, the brother was able to give them minute details and modus operandi of his brother's earliest murders almost as if he had been there at the scenes at the time, but in the end, he was exhonerated of any involvement - perhaps because he co-operated with/ or struck a deal with the police.
There are surely other cases of colluders in serial killers' actions - "having a suspicion and doing nothing about it" probably chief among their own crimes.
Best,
Siobhán

[Errata]

There are surely other cases of colluders in serial killers' actions - "having a suspicion and doing nothing about it" probably chief among their own crimes.
Best,
Siobhán

I think it might boil down to particulars, but I think in most cases the question is "What is there to know?". Any behavior a person engages in that he or she tries to conceal from others is similar in this. If you have a friend who is odd, and a loner, and disappears from time to time you aren't going to think "Oh he's a serial killer". You think "Well thats just Bob being Bob". It's not like the guy comes to your house in the middle of the night covered in blood. I would say in most cases there is nothing to suspect. Serial Killers tend to be masters of compartmentalization, and they don't bring their murdering life in contact with their social life, unless thats part of their fantasy.

I have been surprised any number of times in my life by successful duplicity by friends. I have had good friends successfully conceal addiction, abuse, criminal activity. And in each case I could look back and say "oh, then this behaviour was caused by drugs" but at the time I just thought it was John having a bad day, or Bill drinking too much at a party, or Susan making a bad decision. I think anyone who interacts socially with a serial killer can look back an say "oh, that's why he left town all the time" but in reality, they had no reason to doubt the killer when he said he left town for work.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

I have been surprised any number of times in my life by successful duplicity by friends. I have had good friends successfully conceal addiction, abuse, criminal activity. And in each case I could look back and say "oh, then this behaviour was caused by drugs" but at the time I just thought it was John having a bad day, or Bill drinking too much at a party, or Susan making a bad decision. I think anyone who interacts socially with a serial killer can look back an say "oh, that's why he left town all the time" but in reality, they had no reason to doubt the killer when he said he left town for work.

You must be very gullable or naeive if you are always hoodwinked!

Cuervo did bring up a good point: how many serial killers had indirect or direct help? I'm not talking about a hands-on assistant. But others who facilitated the crimes out of fear or an unwillingness to confront the situation head on.
There are several cases of mothers knowing or suspecting their son's behaviour but keeping schtum about it. For example, didn't Ed Gein's mother have "suspicions" about him (because of police attention) before he turned on her. By her silence, she facilitated his crimes and this ultimately led to her own death.
I'm sure (as I said in the earlier post) that there are oodles of other examples of collusion apart from Pickton and Gein - even if it is indirect help like a person staying silent or not acting on a hunch or suspicion. Who is going to admit this after the serial killer is caught...that if they had said or done something they could have saved lives but just didn't act on it.

Siobhán

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Sorry, I meant Ed Kemper and not Ed Gein in previous post!
Siobhán

[Wickerman]

Phil Sugden offers his opinion on profiling (emphasis my own).

"To judge from John Douglas' profile of Jack the Ripper, he would place him in the disorganized category. But caution is necessary here. However useful the FBI typology is as a starting point for discussion it is a simplistic analysis. Many offenders will exhibit characteristics of both types. The Ripper is clearly one.
In some ways (the probability that he was single, the local nature of his crimes and his disposition to leave bodies unhidden at the murder scene) he undoubtedly does fit into the disorganized group.
But in others (his ability to engage victims in conversation, the disciplined character of his mature modus operandi and his care to remove weapons and clues from the scene) he sounds much more like an organized offender."
The Complete Jack the Ripper, 1995, p.470.

I concur completely..

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

You must be very gullable or naeive if you are always hoodwinked!

Actually I look at it more that I am not psychic. And it's not always, but a few times. I had two friends arrested for cocaine possession as a complete surprise to me. They didn't do coke around me. They didn't want me to see them high. They thought that I would judge them or turn them in because I didn't do drugs, and I had turned in someone before. They didn't know that the only reason I called the cops on a guy before was because he was freaking out and had a gun. And of course cocaine makes you paranoid, so they were pretty convinced that I was just waiting for an opportunity to to rat on them.

There are any number of people in the world who are weird, or creepy, or insane who don't kill people. Situations like the one with Jared Loughner are pretty rare. Anyway, there's an old metaphor about boiling a frog. Turn the heat up slowly enough and it never feels so hot that it jumps out of the pot. If someone deteriorates slowly enough, its almost impossible to notice. Never mind that a good deal of serial killers move on when people start to mention their odd behaviour.

As for Kemper, his mom started locking him in the basement for fear that he would rape his little sister when he was 9 years old. Not because he ever did anything to his sister, but because his mother was a Borderline personality. She didn't see something wrong in him that was there, she invented and abused him for it. Surely that doesn't merit a pat on the back?

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

As for Kemper, his mom started locking him in the basement for fear that he would rape his little sister when he was 9 years old. Not because he ever did anything to his sister, but because his mother was a Borderline personality. She didn't see something wrong in him that was there, she invented and abused him for it. Surely that doesn't merit a pat on the back?

Kemper dismembered many of his female victims in his mother's house while she was there. One can assume that she must have known something was "slightly amiss" but did nothing about it. Also, he had already killed and served time for murdering his grandparents. Yes, she was a borderline nutcase herself but all I wanted to demonstrate is that in certain serial killers operations, others are colluding in some way in what is going on - by doing nothing. That's all.
I don't understand the pat on the back part of your post but really liked the analogy of the frog. Yes, if a person's behaviour deteriorates so slowly and gradually in almost imperceptable stages, then sure, the people around that preson are less likely to cop on that there is a serial killer in their midst.
But is gradual deterioration in behaviour typical of your average serial killer?
Best,
Siobhán

[jonwilson]

fbi or criminal profiles are nonsense to me. The fact is anyone no matter what kind of family or upbringing you come from can become a serial killer for whatever the reason. I also believe there is a possibility that jack could have had a girlfriend or even a wife. They also said that serial killers don't stop killing. We now know this to be incorrect as there were some killers who stopped killing for a long time.

[jonwilson]

Someone brought up Kemper. When Kemper started killing people, no one that knew him thought he was the killer. This guy was friends with cops. Just goes to show you these serial killers can fool a lot of people.

[corey123]

fbi or criminal profiles are nonsense to me. The fact is anyone no matter what kind of family or upbringing you come from can become a serial killer for whatever the reason. I also believe there is a possibility that jack could have had a girlfriend or even a wife. They also said that serial killers don't stop killing. We now know this to be incorrect as there were some killers who stopped killing for a long time.

Actually Jon, the Douglas profile says exactly the opposite. He wrote that serial killers, against popular belief, do stop.

Again I would say quit being so close minded that you wouldn't even read the profile.

Corey

[jonwilson]

Actually Jon, the Douglas profile says exactly the opposite. He wrote that serial killers, against popular belief, do stop.

Again I would say quit being so close minded that you wouldn't even read the profile.

Corey

I'm not close minded. Too many people buy into these criminal profiles as if they truly mean something. They mean nothing in my opinion. I know enough to know that some of the things we've been told over and over again by the so called experts are incorrect.

[Stephen Thomas]

I'm not close minded. Too many people buy into these criminal profiles as if they truly mean something. They mean nothing in my opinion. I know enough to know that some of the things we've been told over and over again by the so called experts are incorrect.

Please see my post #8 on this thread