Modern day prostitute killers & JtR

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi again
I think all are possible, even probable,but i think these are more "Conscious" reasons attributed to why serial killers kill. But I think the true reasons are deeper and more complex........ So I think that ther are levels to the question why do serial killers do it:

1. nature and nurture factors
2. Psychological reason of enjoyment derived
3. immediate "apparant"circumstances (could also act as the trigger)

Yes, I agree but the trigger may be the key!
I read a book years back on serial killers (written by a Dr of Psychology - sorry can't remember name) who profiled serial killers including Charles Manson and others of that era. She came to the conclusion that they had one thing in common - a serious accident in their formative years which damaged the frontal lobe of the brain. For example, Manson fell out of a tree and landed on his head as a kid and after that his behaviour changed for the worse...
She concluded that had it not been for serious head injuries, the serial killers profiled in her book might have lived normal and productive lives. Mind you, she didn't attempt to include any serial killers who hadn't been dropped on their head as a baby so to speak! She chose people to fit her already formulated theory.
I agree that the analysis must go deeper when looking at serial killers (including my own analysis) but one has to start somewhere. Unlike the Dr of Psychology above, I did choose my subjects randomly with no pre-conceived notions.


To answer your earlier question, my name is pronounced Shivaun. ("bh" in the Irish language is pronounced "v").


To Chris George : the case of the Long Island killer will be solved soon according to today's New York Post as all the victims advertised themselves on Craigslist personal services site. Surely it will only be a matter of checking the commonality of IP addresses of computers (for messages received by the victims) and they will apprehend the killer. There should be an announcment soon. Well, let's hope so.
Best,

Siobhán

[ChrisGeorge]

I' tend to agree with ChrisGeorge that the torso murders were the work of another killer. It's possibly, of course, that it was Jack, but to me there is a greater likelihood that the killer in this case dismembered his victims primarily to prevent their identification, meaning they might be in some way socially connected to him or her. Further, they could have been killed for any reason: financial gain, abortions gone wrong, or just plain savagery. I doubt that Jack the Ripper could have gotten the level of gratification from dismemberment as he did from 'ripping' and stabbing. It just doesn't fit, especially given the fact that after the Pinchin Street torso was discovered, the Ripper killings continued in their 'traditional' pattern.

Far more likely, I think, is the torso killer taking advantage of the murders in Whitechapel to dispose of parts of his victims there to try and have them blamed on the Ripper.

Thanks for agreeing with me. One historical inaccuracy though. You say, "I doubt that Jack the Ripper could have gotten the level of gratification from dismemberment as he did from 'ripping' and stabbing. It just doesn't fit, especially given the fact that after the Pinchin Street torso was discovered, the Ripper killings continued in their 'traditional' pattern [emphasis mine]."

Maybe you meant the Whitehall Torso case that took place during the Autumn of Terror of 1888 before which and after which the canonical murders took place. The Pinchin Street Torso was found September 10, 1889, after the murder of the fifth canonical murder, that of Mary Jane Kelly in Miller's Court, Spitalfields, on November 9, 1888.

All the best

Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

To Chris George : the case of the Long Island killer will be solved soon according to today's New York Post as all the victims advertised themselves on Craigslist personal services site. Surely it will only be a matter of checking the commonality of IP addresses of computers (for messages received by the victims) and they will apprehend the killer. There should be an announcment soon. Well, let's hope so.
Best,

Siobhán

Hi Siobhán

Thanks for that snippet of news.

We might also note that the killings of Jack the Ripper were not that different in terms of victims chosen to a large number of other series of killings of prostitutes. The "Jack the Stripper" murders (also known as the Hammersmith nude murders) in London in 1964-65 come to mind as another prostitute series. And there is some news on that series as we reported in Ripperologist no. 119 just published:

JACK THE STRIPPER DOCUMENTARY TO BE AIRED. In Rip 118 we reported that author Neil Milkins had written a book naming Harold Jones as the 1960s murderer, and that it would be published in April. Mr Milkins has been in touch to say that Who Was Jack The Stripper? will be launched at Abertillery library at 2.00pm on Monday 18 April, and that a one-hour documentary based on the book will be aired on Sky’s Crime and Investigation Channel at 9.00pm on 1 May as part of a series entitled Crime Stories. If you’re near Abertillery on 18 April, go along and meet Mr Milkins.

Cheers

Chris

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhán

Thanks for that snippet of news.

We might also note that the killings of Jack the Ripper were not that different in terms of victims chosen to a large number of other series of killings of prostitutes. The "Jack the Stripper" murders (also known as the Hammersmith nude murders) in London in 1964-65 come to mind as another prostitute series. And there is some news on that series as we reported in Ripperologist no. 119 just published:

JACK THE STRIPPER DOCUMENTARY TO BE AIRED. In Rip 118 we reported that author Neil Milkins had written a book naming Harold Jones as the 1960s murderer, and that it would be published in April. Mr Milkins has been in touch to say that Who Was Jack The Stripper? will be launched at Abertillery library at 2.00pm on Monday 18 April, and that a one-hour documentary based on the book will be aired on Sky’s Crime and Investigation Channel at 9.00pm on 1 May as part of a series entitled Crime Stories. If you’re near Abertillery on 18 April, go along and meet Mr Milkins.

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris,
Will watch out for that programme you mentioned. Thanks.

As regards Ripperologest Magazine.... I've tried to access the www...biz link you have under your signature a few times but it doesn't work for me. Could you give the most up-to-date link to the site? I would appreciate.
Cheers.


Siobhán

[Steven_Rex]

Chris, thank you! You're quite right, of course, I confess to only skimming the wiki page about the Pinchin Street torso, and somehow managed to take note of the month and day, but completely misread the year! With Whitechapel so crime-ridden, and murders still taking place in the area after the 'canonical five', I still find it possible that the torso killer deliberately chose the East-end of London to dispose of parts of his victims in order to deflect attention from himself and onto the Ripper. After all, we know that the Ripper 'stopped' in 1888, but people at the time were presumably still on guard and perhaps even expectant that more murders would occur.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris,
Will watch out for that programme you mentioned. Thanks.

As regards Ripperologest Magazine.... I've tried to access the www...biz link you have under your signature a few times but it doesn't work for me. Could you give the most up-to-date link to the site? I would appreciate.
Cheers.


Siobhán

It's taken a while to get the Rip website fully up and running but I believe it should be fully live soon.

Chris

[Jdombrowski89]

Very interesting, Jdombrowski89, and very possibly right on the money! I wonder, though, if you think this possibility might have ramifications for the Ripper's domestic situation. With presumably a much sparser level of furniture and storage space (especially if he lived in Whitechapel) than we're used to today, do you think the killer must have lived alone if he was to take home bloody 'trophies' and successfully hide them? I imagine a wife and/or children might have spotted them in a relatively small dwelling, or at least Jack, if married, might have worried this could happen. Similar problem if he lived in a doss-house or shared lodgings.

Ramifications for the Ripper's domestic situation? I don't think it at all would have ramifications. My reasoning is this. Although the living situation I am in right now is different from those in the East End (I live with my fiancee and two daughters) I decided to try out an experiment of sorts.I decided to go to the local Adult-Film store, and buy several "certain" movies. My goal? To not only come home with these items in a bag, in front of my lady and our two children, but to be able to contain them. Case and point? Jack the Ripper coming home to a possible family setting with his "trophies". So Imagine I am jack, and these videos are my trophies. I do NOT want anyone to see them, and I want to be able to keep them for my own enjoyment.

Now out of this whole house, the only "real" space that I have, is in my bedroom. My fiancee is also a clean freak too (Hope she doesn't see this on here ) So my only real place, the only real successful way to "hide my trophies" is underneath my mattress, or inside my closets which have a considerable amount of stuff. So I bought the movies, about 3 of them one night, and came home. To my surprise, my parents and grandparents were all over having dinner. I said my greetings and proceeded into my room without anyone catching onto a thing. I went into my one closet, and hid the movies inside of an old small box, with other papers that blended in perfectly.

My fiancee decided to ask me later that night, while preparing for bed, what it was I went out for. I told her that I went to get a book at the local book store which is closing. She did not catch on at all, AND I remained calm the entire time. Now the whole time, I know exactly where they are at this point and time. I know my fiancee isn't the type to get up and go to that exact spot, so I know that location is safe for my "trophies". So while waking up (I have 2 weeks off because of surgery which made this a great opportunity) She went to work and I stayed with our 3 month old, Sophia. Our 4 year old, Sierra woke up soon after. Now inbetween taking care of them two and doing things around the house, on three occasions I was able to take the videos out, setting them out in my room next to me at 10 minutes each time. I was able to keep my daughter safely occupied with television, the other was sleeping cause she had a headcold. Now if I was a serial killer and I had woken up, the morning after mutilating a woman and I have the opportunity to make absolutely certain , that I could be able to see my "trophies" for 10 minutes at a time, 3 times before noon, I am starting to be able to control not just what I have done from the crime itself, but incorporate it into my home. And that is just before noon.

As soon as noon rolls around, Sierra usually naps for 2 hours, Sophia 3. So actually that day they napped from 12:30-3:00pm. The entire time I sat here writing of course, the movies spread out throughout the house (I wanted to step it up here a bit). Well at 2:30 I get a call from my fiancee telling me she will me home in 5 minutes. So I act calm, and as soon as the phone conversation ends, I gather up my "trophies" and put them back in the safety spot. She arrives home several minutes later and she did not catch onto anything. Throughout the day, every so often I would ask her to watch the baby and keep an eye on Sierra while I used the restroom (Claiming a sick stomach). Instead I'd retrieve my "trophies" and sit in the bathroom, timing myself for 15 minutes this time. By the end of the night I make sure to have another instance to showcase myself with my trophies.

I continued this up until last night.

I'm not some sick minded freak, I promise. But this experiment clearly showed several things, in comparison to the question you asked, Steve. And that is this. If an individual has a drive, whether driven sexually or by other means, to go and mutilate a woman, and take her items back to his residence, anything is possible. On several occasions we're looking at where the expendature of items would fit in a breakfast cup. If this invidual had a wife and children, he easily could've entered the house with his trophies concealed. Now afterwards not only is he dealing with the pressure of the crime or crimes he has just committed, but he's got the evidence in his household. There is no telling what an individual will do under the circumstances but from the experiment that I had done, what drove me was for my fiancee and my children not to find these. A strong drive that made me question myself at times with paranoia as well as fear.

But the fact that we're dealing with a serial killer who clearly shows not only control over the crime scenes as well as his victims, but the victims themselves after death. I was able to perform this, with a simple experiment, I also was able to not get caught and actually return the unopened videos back to the video store. So essentially, yes I think that either if the killer lived alone, in a crowded household, or in a family setting that he could have successfully "hidden" his trophies. Just look at the collection of things Dennis Rader, BTK, stole from his victims as trophies, and where he concealed them...he even said he KNEW that his wife would not suspect this, that,etc.

What we have to remember is not only the situation that this individual possibly lives in, but the DRIVE that manuevers them to commit these crimes...the drive that not only leads them to commit heinous crimes, BUT also to carry over into their household situations. So in most cases, if an individual is determined to murder a prostitute, take a trophy home...I can guarantee his reserve and dominance to keep that item close, will be just as thought out and carefully executed as the crime itself.

Hope this helps,
Justin

P.S.
No adult situations were opened at all. I decided to purchase these items merely because to be in possession of the contents would be somewhat, vaguely similar to withholding literally pieces of a victims body (It terms of shocking, degrading, frowned upon,etc) ...so generally speaking it was merely just an experiment

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

P.S.
No adult situations were opened at all. I decided to purchase these items merely because to be in possession of the contents would be somewhat, vaguely similar to withholding literally pieces of a victims body (It terms of shocking, degrading, frowned upon,etc) ...so generally speaking it was merely just an experiment

Hi there,
Can a person be a bit brilliant and a bit silly at the same time?
I applaud your experiment because you wanted to test out a theory and get results. If you had kept part of a kidney as the Ripper did (instead of forbidden DVDs) - wouldn't it have started to smell without putting it in a fridge (which they didn't have in 1888)? JtR would have had some explaining to do to the missus about the stench. Mind you, they didn't have very good sewage systems back then so he could have used that as an excuse.
In spite of the slight criticism, you could have been writing a diary for JtR or some other serial killer the way you went about the task, so well done.

Best,
Siobhá

[Jdombrowski89]

Hi there,
Can a person be a bit brilliant and a bit silly at the same time?
I applaud your experiment because you wanted to test out a theory and get results. If you had kept part of a kidney as the Ripper did (instead of forbidden DVDs) - wouldn't it have started to smell without putting it in a fridge (which they didn't have in 1888)? JtR would have had some explaining to do to the missus about the stench. Mind you, they didn't have very good sewage systems back then so he could have used that as an excuse.
In spite of the slight criticism, you could have been writing a diary for JtR or some other serial killer the way you went about the task, so well done.

Best,
Siobhá

Thanks Siobhán, The comments are greatly appreciated. Now if I had attempted to keep part of a kidney, of course it would've started to smell without putting it in the fridge. But before hand I would look to common forms of things like lime,etc, back in 1888 and if these were available. And as you've said about the sewage systems, etc. Back around those times I think with the horse excrement on the streets, the fact that you'd have urine/fecal matter in almost any public place in Whitechapel and backyards and alleyways, that it would be a minor issue compared to that.

But such a situation would set up a location such as that of someone who worked with meat and butchery for a living, something of a 'hot lead' to look at. Not only are you dealing with a familiar smells and sights, say for instance if I have a kidney from a woman, and I'm a jewish butcher and it's in a freezer, or however it was they preserved their food back then, I can simply say that I'm testing a form of meat disease or that it's a form of meat that I'm saving for the dogs or cats. That's one thing that immediately comes to mind about this serial killer is several things...hes compulsive at almost everything he does. I believe from looking at the profile I've constructed, he would've also been a compulsive liar. This is someone trustworthy. If he was bringing in incriminating items into his household, setting, wherever, before he was even through the door he was plausibly already planning on a scapegoat for if the items were ever found, why they were in his possession.

So another thing that is worth looking at, when it comes to serial killers, is those who've had personal trophies. I would like to see what not only their thoughts are on them, but what they were thinking when they claimed them from the appropiate victims. I think it would push for a new alleyway of investigation into the minds of these individuals.

Regards,
Justin

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Long Island Killer

So another thing that is worth looking at, when it comes to serial killers, is those who've had personal trophies. I would like to see what not only their thoughts are on them, but what they were thinking when they claimed them from the appropiate victims. I think it would push for a new alleyway of investigation into the minds of these individuals.
Regards,
Justin

Hi Justin,
On trophies, I've been trying to find out if the Long Island killer has been collecting trophies or souvenirs from his victims and realise that the police have been very cagey about releasing information to the public or media. Obivously they have their reasons for this.

If my original profile of modern day serial killers (to gain better knowledge of JtR) is in any way accurate, the Long Island killer is:
A white male in his 30s or 40s, working class or poorly educated, works in a low-skilled or non-professional job, has been married at least once, has already come to the attention of the police for crimes unrelated to murder, is likely to suffer from an addiction (alcohol, drugs, gambling) problem or mental illness, had been swindled out of money by a prostitute or lived with one with disastrous results, may collect trophies from his victims and has probably already come under suspicion for the Long Island murders but police overlooked a piece of evidence and discounted him/ let him go.
It will be interesting to see if any of the profile fits.
With new technology, it is surprising he has not already been caught.
God bless the women who have already died at his hands.

Siobhán

[Versa]

Steven Rex,
My theory is that JtR had either been 1. swindled out of money by one or more prositutes, or 2. had married one with disastrous results, or 3. contracted syphillis from frequenting prostitutes - or a combination of 1 to 3.

Hi I know this was posted a little way back but I have to add (4) the possibility that his mother had been engaged in prostitution or at least had multiple partners to which young JtR was exposed, my reasons behind this lie with the mutilations of the womb/stomach and the possibility that JtR was 'neutering' his victims.

I also tend to disagree with the idea that the time/era of the murders is significant in any major way. Human psychology has been the same for aeons and the base reasons behind crimes remain the same. People were not THAT different in the Victorian era and crimes and murders were committed for EXACTLY the same reasons that they are now.....

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi I know this was posted a little way back but I have to add (4) the possibility that his mother had been engaged in prostitution or at least had multiple partners to which young JtR was exposed, my reasons behind this lie with the mutilations of the womb/stomach and the possibility that JtR was 'neutering' his victims.

Hi Versa,
I agree. I should have included that!
Lots of serial killers had "mother issues".

There is an interesting thread on whether JtR was also a "thief" you might want to have a look at if you haven't already seen it? It's here: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5706

It questions whether JtR took money as well as "trophies"...

[curious]

Hi Versa,
I agree. I should have included that!
Lots of serial killers had "mother issues".

There is an interesting thread on whether JtR was also a "thief" you might want to have a look at if you haven't already seen it? It's here: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5706

It questions whether JtR took money as well as "trophies"...

Because of the age of the victims and the age of the men normally seen with the victims just before their deaths, it seems to me that the "mother" issue is very likely the answer.