Modern day prostitute killers & JtR

[Steven_Rex]

Siobhan,

Thanks for the welcome and the tip - I'll have a look through what already looks like another great thread! I'm always amazed by the level of intelligent thought and clear-sightedness that seems to be the order of the day on these boards.

Steven

[Abby Normal]

Hello, all,

I'm new to the forums, and have really enjoyed skimming through the discussions here. This particular thread has been of great interest - well done Siobhan for your very insightful original post! One thing I would like to add to the mix, however, is the importance of historical context. As a student of history, I'm all too aware of just how much beliefs, education and psychology can differ between time periods. With that in mind, I think it's worth considering the extent to which we can safely ascribe the mindset and motives of 'modern' serial killers to one operating in a culture that is, in reality, so alien to our own.

For example, if modern killers of this type are often loners, sexual deviants, or particularly likely to stick to a specific MO, can we really say with any surety that a killer in 1888 would be the same? I can't answer that, of course, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that a murderer operating in the Victorian period would have an entirely different set of values, norms, level of education and even cultural knowledge to one committing crimes in the 20th/21st century. With that in mind, it might be worth, perhaps, looking at known prostitute killers who were at work in a roughly contemporary time period.

Hi SR
Welcome.
Not too many prostitute killers around at the time of JtR but this serial killer was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Vacher

[Steven_Rex]

Thanks, Abby. Very interesting - I hadn't heard of Vacher before, but I'd consider him a very worthwhile case-study due to the period in which he operated. Also worth considering is his use of mutilation - although I note that he, too, engaged in sexual activity with his victims. One thing that has always puzzled me about the Ripper is the seeming lack of sexual motivation - the women were never raped. I wonder if police at the time would have been careful enough to search the entire area for traces of semen? If none was present, I wonder if the Ripper did, in fact, gain sexual satisfaction simply from mutilating the bodies, as I have read that some killers achieve it from penetrating their victims with a blade. Again, it is conjecture (as is so much in this case!), but I can't help but ascribe some kind of sexual psychopathy to these murders. After all, there has to be SOME reason behind the extreme mutilations of the Ripper victims. Perhaps he was impotent and unable to perform sexually in the normal manner.

Interesting also is Vacher's 'backstory'; the spurned love for his early conquest. Like Vacher, Jack the Ripper had to come from SOMEWHERE, and must have had some previous experience with women (likely unsuccessful) which led to his actions in late 1888.

[sdreid]

A recent book, The Killer of Little Shepherds is about Vacher.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

A recent book, The Killer of Little Shepherds is about Vacher.

Vacher is indeed fascinating. Just had a look at his profile on wiki. He killed 5 teenage girls and 5 teenage boys. He was not a prostitute killer.
I think it would be better if we focus on those killers who murdered / targeted prostitutes, otherwise the field of study is too broad.
Why do certain killers target prostitutes in particular? Because they believe these women are easy targets? Because they believe such women are less than human because of the work they do etc...If we find the motive, then we might be better able to devise a profile of the killer - Jack the Ripper.

Best,
Siobhán

[Steven_Rex]

Good point about making the study too broad, Siobhan. Also, focussing on Vacher would, I guess, muddy our understand of the possible motives behind the murders of prostitutes. The simplest notion, is, of course, that they were simply easy targets.

However, given that predominantly sexual psychopaths seem to target them, I would suggest that there is something else going on. Prostitutes occupy a precarious position in terms of conventional femininity (perhaps even moreso during the Victorian era). They are women, but they sell something that 'decent, respectable women' withhold, or provide only to their husbands. They are outsiders, and they break traditional rules of social hierarchy and law. If Jack had had some experience with 'respectable' women, which led him to hate or distrust the gender, he may have focussed that anger on women who represent, in his mind, the worst type of woman - she who sells her sexuality to desperate men. I think this is just as likely as an ingrained, social or religious prejudice against prostitutes or a bad experience with one (as Peter Sutcliffe had).

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

However, given that predominantly sexual psychopaths seem to target them, I would suggest that there is something else going on. Prostitutes occupy a precarious position in terms of conventional femininity (perhaps even moreso during the Victorian era). They are women, but they sell something that 'decent, respectable women' withhold, or provide only to their husbands. They are outsiders, and they break traditional rules of social hierarchy and law. If Jack had had some experience with 'respectable' women, which led him to hate or distrust the gender, he may have focussed that anger on women who represent, in his mind, the worst type of woman - she who sells her sexuality to desperate men. I think this is just as likely as an ingrained, social or religious prejudice against prostitutes or a bad experience with one (as Peter Sutcliffe had).

Steven Rex,
My theory is that JtR had either been 1. swindled out of money by one or more prositutes, or 2. had married one with disastrous results, or 3. contracted syphillis from frequenting prostitutes - or a combination of 1 to 3. The five prostitute killers in my profile had experienced at least one or two (and possibly all three) of the above outcomes.
On another thread, someone has proposed that the culture and society of 1888 might have been a factor to discount modern retrospective analyses but I disagree.
I don't think the fact that it was 1888 changes JtRs motive for killing prositutes - see 1 to 3 above - mind you, I can't prove it!

Best,
Siobhán

[ChrisGeorge]

Steven Rex,
My theory is that JtR had either been 1. swindled out of money by one or more prositutes, or 2. had married one with disastrous results, or 3. contracted syphillis from frequenting prostitutes - or a combination of 1 to 3. The five prostitute killers in my profile had experienced at least one or two (and possibly all three) of the above outcomes.
On another thread, someone has proposed that the culture and society of 1888 might have been a factor to discount modern retrospective analyses but I disagree.
I don't think the fact that it was 1888 changes JtRs motive for killing prositutes - see 1 to 3 above - mind you, I can't prove it!

Best,
Siobhán

Hello Siobhán

Not to discount or dismiss your theory, I would just point out that idea that the killer was suffering from syphilis contracted from a prostitute or had been robbed by a prostitute and was therefore seeking revenge against women of the street, is a very old notion. It was current at the time of the murders and has been expressed in various theories and stories about the case since that time, e.g., in Leonard Matters theory about Dr. Stanley killing prostitutes because a prostitute had given his son syphilis.

I wonder though whether the idea that the murderer was a lust killer who got a thrill from killing and mutilating might be more viable and in keeping with what we know today about the motivation of serial killers? That sort of motivation does not seem entirely compatible with the syphilis/revenge motive. There is also the idea that late stage syphilis takes many years to develop which does not fit with the shorter timeline many of these theories call for.

Best regards

Chris

[Cuervo]

Hi everyone,

Siobhan, I loved your article abour Francis Tumblety, I got captiveted from the very first line. He fits quite right appart from the fact that I agree with the fact that JTR was a lust murderer. Thank you for it
Best for all

[Jdombrowski89]

JtR was a prostitute killer so I wanted to hone in on other serial prostitute killers. If I had included all serial killers of women, like Bundy, my research would have been too broad in focus. My main focus was to attempt to get a retrospective profile of JtR.
I had heard of the research you mentioned in an earlier post which covered a very broad spectrum. Mine attempted to cover a narrower field - serial killers of prostitute killers only.
Thanks for your encouragement in your second post. I do intend to investigate further - for example, Will Suff mentioned by Abby Normal in an earlier post.

Best,

Siobhán

Siobhán,

Even if "too broad" in focus, you still would've seen quite a bit of similarities in other Serial killers who don't murder prostitutes, in comparison with JTR.

The realm of criminal profiling, when it comes to not only offenders, but serial killers in nature, are sometimes somewhat of a sketchy thing nowadays in criminal investigations, especially more weary the further back you go dealing with unsolved/cold crimes. As much as other serial killers can tell us about one in general, there is just as much that could be discounted, as considered.

I have studied, partaken in plenty of Criminal profiling instances whether it was dealing from working on cases in search of offenders while as a County Detective Intern, to actively learning and reading about more as I progressed through schooling. Somewhere around on my computer I've been working on a complete psychological/criminal profile of JTR. Part of it will be actually in an upcoming revised edition of a JTR book, which I can't reveal just yet.

And it's not meant as a slander or as something in criticism to you, but I agree with Rob did say. Although what you've branched upon is basic for profile knowledge some, or generally all of us agree on (That's for those who place validity in profiling) And while you touched on some good points, one fact that I believe, as a Criminal Profiler, is also that he was apprehended/arrested for a lesser crime before or during the Whitechapel Murders. But of course there is plenty of evidence with Serial Killers besides those who have murdered prostitutes, of being arrested for lesser known offenses. But of course also, I understand you wished to touch a more broader perspective when approaching these profiles.

Several Serial Killer's who were apprehended and arrested before being arrested for their crime would be individuals such as Joseph Vacher, Jeffrey Dahmer (Referring to the incident where one of his victims actually escaped, and police questioned him, rather half-assed, about it) Vacher seems to strike somewhat of a cord, mutilation wise, with the Ripper. Although Vacher and JTR are two completely different people, there are some similarities there, just like other Serial Killers. But to narrow it down to Prostitute killers, even though it's a good execution and yeilds good results, doesn't nescessarily compile a good enough profile. JTR exhibited quite a bit of stuff, as we all have seen, and there have not been any serial killers like him since then. We have some who may have been close, but not have done exactly how he did, or operated in that sense.

And of course I'm speaking from the whim that criminal profiling does work. But atleast two issues I had which I wish to point out are two things. I would maintain that a good likelihood remains that the Ripper was in fact married. We have classic examples of Serial Killer's who were married during crime sprees, Dennis Rader being a good example. He could have also been experiencing marital problems as well, going through a divorce, and most likely could have spawned children. The fact that there have been murderers who can carry a succesful relationship with someone else, unnoticed (Another example being Craigs List SK, Philip Markoff) it raises the theory of whether or not The Ripper was a lone person. But with the raised speculation of those mentioned, it can swing anyway.

Also I would count Bundy into a major prominance when it comes to profiling, even though he is not a Prostitute murderer. A reason being of his connection to the Green River Killings. His analysis of GRK, and his methods of operation showed that although the two picked different forms of types of women (Bundy picking college co-eds,etc and Ridgway picking prostitutes) it just comes to show that they atleast both operated the same way when it came to trolling for victims, even though their techniques and method(s) of murder were different. David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam", cruised around on nights searching for couples to shoot, BUT, it was really no different than the method Bundy, Manson, Rader, or any other Serial Killer would have used to prey on their victims.

That's one of the harder things about profiling is that as much as we can discount specific serial killers into a certain group, in other means you can't. The one thing you can't do, is separate them into the types of victims they kill, for certain instances, because in the way that JTR searched for his women, it could easily be said it was along the same lines that Berkowitz, Rader & Vacher operated. They had a goal they wanted to achieve, they "stalked" their prey and evidence shows they had control of the situation at hand. And mostly, I would be willing to bet that The Ripper actually probably shares more in common with Serial Killer's who didn't kill prostitutes, just as much with those who did.

Not trying to be harsh at all, by any chances. Merely stating just some objections from my point of view. And of course if there's anything you have questions on or anything along those lines, I'd be happy to help. As far as suspects go though, I saw that you mentioned Mann grabbed your interest? However it is interesting to note that Mann only worked at 2 mortuaries where the bodies were held, so if that's the motive some people still claim that produces him as a suspect, it kinda falls apart .

Regards,
Justin

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi everyone,

Siobhan, I loved your article abour Francis Tumblety, I got captiveted from the very first line. He fits quite right appart from the fact that I agree with the fact that JTR was a lust murderer. Thank you for it
Best for all

Cheers! I'm glad you liked it.
Siobhán

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Not trying to be harsh at all, by any chances. Merely stating just some objections from my point of view. And of course if there's anything you have questions on or anything along those lines, I'd be happy to help. As far as suspects go though, I saw that you mentioned Mann grabbed your interest? However it is interesting to note that Mann only worked at 2 mortuaries where the bodies were held, so if that's the motive some people still claim that produces him as a suspect, it kinda falls apart .

Regards,
Justin

Hi Justin,
I read your post with interest.
Thanks for taking the time to put your point of view across.
I do have a question! Do you think that JtR was impotent given that there was no sign of sexual activity at any of the crime scenes? This would perhaps put a different slant on JtR's motive for murder. Also, are there other more recent serial killers who did not leave any trace of sexual activity at their crime scenes (because of importence)? They might be worth looking into - at least from my point of view.
I have ordered the book Quest for a Killer: Jack the Ripper by Mei Trow about the most recent suspect Mann (2009) even though I noticed from another thread on this site that most people including yourself believe he's not a credible suspect. Even so, I'm curious to know more about him. There is only a brief biog on Mann in Ripper wiki. It needs to be added to! He might even deserve his own section in the list of suspects - given that Lewis Carroll and others (who should not be included) have their own place on the list.
Best,
Siobhán

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hello Siobhán


I wonder though whether the idea that the murderer was a lust killer who got a thrill from killing and mutilating might be more viable and in keeping with what we know today about the motivation of serial killers? That sort of motivation does not seem entirely compatible with the syphilis/revenge motive. There is also the idea that late stage syphilis takes many years to develop which does not fit with the shorter timeline many of these theories call for.

Best regards

Chris

Hi Chris George,
People seem to be divided between the two possibilities. Could it be that he was a lust killer with revenge triggering the series of murders? Would that be possible! The escalation in the level of violence did seem to indicate that he was growing to the task with each victim during the short timeline.

Siobhán

[corey123]

Siobahn,

I would warn you not to waste your time on Mann, he isn't the ripper.

[corey123]

I want to echo Justins comments,

Although I haven't had as much experience as he with this matter, he is right, don't narrow your view to only prostitute murders. Take Ted Bundy for example, he didn't murder prostitutes but he may indeed share many characteristics found in Jack the Ripper.

The same can be said of many killers, whether they murder prostitutes or not means almost nothing aside from perhaps a fetish. There are many killers who mutilate yet do not target prostitutes.

In narrowing your range to only prostitute murders you are restricting yourself in a way to a very close minded profile. Expand your view, look beyond the horizon. In my opinion killers like Ted Bundy and Jack the Ripper may have much more in common than people think.

Keep yourself open to such possibilities.

Corey,

p.s Robert Mann is a crappy suspect