Modern day prostitute killers & JtR

[corey123]

Rob,

As I said Killeen missed the description of 18 wounds, he noted 39. He didn't describe the locations of the other 18. Both the report and the news article describe those and the other 18. What else is there to get?

[robhouse]

I am aware that Killeen did not apparently describe 18 of the wounds, and that the targeted areas were the throat, torso, and genitals.

However, again, you said, "I found a news article in the Daily News, August 10th, that mentioned the number of the wounds, nine to the private parts(one was a gash), and nine to the throat."

Can you provide a quote from the article that says there were "nine [wounds] to the private parts"? That is all I am asking.

Am I missing something?

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

I think much of what is put forward in these profiles is self-evident given a small amount of thought.

But the one that interests me in the original post is the incidence of convictions for other offences.

Yes, the 5 in the case study had previous criminal records or had come to the attention of the police before the serial prostitute murders:
Peter Sutcliffe: arrested for attempted burglary when found in possession of a hammer
Robert Hansen: convicted of theft and arson
Gary Ridgway: arrested aged 16 for stabbing a child, also arrested but never convicted of offences relating to prostitution
Robert Pickton: arrested for drug and illegal weapons' possession but never convicted
Steven Wright: convicted of theft

I suppose all this shows is that the 5 in the case study had criminal backgrounds or were "already known to the police" as the saying goes. I postulated therefore that JtR had already come to the attention of the police prior to the Whitechapel slayings for crimes unrelated to murder.
Best,
Siobhán

[robhouse]

Hi again Corey,

I was looking over those articles again. One problem is that same article (Daily News Aug 10) mentions 17 wounds "in the breast." Now I don't know what this means exactly, but to me this suggests 17 in the upper chest. I am not clear on whether these would include the 6 in the stomach or not. But the stomach is actually rather higher on the torso than I would have imagined.

If you add all the specific punctures to internal organs that Killeen mentioned you get 15. Add the 6 wounds to the stomach to this list (assuming he means the organ and not the "belly" or abdomen area) and you get 21. Then add 9 to the neck and you are left with 9 wounds. So I am guessing that you are assuming that these 9 were to the private parts or thereabouts.

The problem is this mention of 17 wounds to the breast. As I said, add up the punctures to the organs and you get either 15 or 21. So what is this 17? I would argue that he means 17 wounds in the upper body, and maybe is excluding the stomach(?) This would mean that there were additional wounds in the torso which did not pierce any specific organs, which is totally understandable.

Also, the Observer Aug 11, mentioned "The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth. " So this does not say multiple wounds, it says "in one place." This "lower portion of the body" is a euphamism in my opinion for the genitalia. None of the news accounts I have seen specifically refer to wounds in the "private part" or anything like that... although Swanson of course mentions it. The Evening News Aug 10 for example says "39 punctured wounds on the body and legs. " So that "and legs" I would suggest is another euphemism for the genitalia.

I was not trying to be snippy in my earlier response, it is just that I have gone over those news reports in some detail, and was wondering if I had missed something. I think it is really impossible, given what we know, to figure out the exact location of all 39 of those stab wounds.

Rob H

[Man Flex]

Rob,

I believe where Corey is coming from is the description given by Ex-Detective Inspector Harry Cox, written in "Thomson's Weekly News"...

Nine were in the throat, seventeen in the breast, and the others in the lower parts of the body.

I think the pathologist's report is probably more credible.

[Cuervo]

Hi Siobhan
Good work!!!!!
I would like to coment about the mental problem issue. I always learnt that postmorten evisceration and behaviours over the dead body in serial killing is a sign of mental issues. But take Ted Bundy, for instance, he went back to rape corpses and he is the case of the perfect psychopath (according to books), not of a man with mental health problems.
Here in Spain, we only had a killer who did postmorten stuff, and he was a case of severe psychosis.

If we take the parts of the bodies taken away as trophies? does anyone think as me that JTR reminds of Jeffrey Dahmer? strangulation, then evisceration, cannibalism and keeping of organs. It´s true that there was no sexual interaction in the case of Jack the Ripper.

[Cuervo]

Corey,
Where can I read your article?
Best
Cuervo

[corey123]

Hello Cuervo,

It was published in the Casebook Examiner, Issue 5, December.

[corey123]

Hello Man Flex,

First of all, that name is killing me

Second, I was right I did get it from the Daily News and the report by Donald Swanson

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan
Good work!!!!!
I would like to coment about the mental problem issue. I always learnt that postmorten evisceration and behaviours over the dead body in serial killing is a sign of mental issues. But take Ted Bundy, for instance, he went back to rape corpses and he is the case of the perfect psychopath (according to books), not of a man with mental health problems.
Here in Spain, we only had a killer who did postmorten stuff, and he was a case of severe psychosis.

If we take the parts of the bodies taken away as trophies? does anyone think as me that JTR reminds of Jeffrey Dahmer? strangulation, then evisceration, cannibalism and keeping of organs. It´s true that there was no sexual interaction in the case of Jack the Ripper.

Thanks Cuervo.
Forensic science didn't really exist (as we know it today) in 1888 though from all the reports, it appears JtR didn't have sex with his victims. BUT I wonder is there a possibility that the Victorian police decided not to mention any evidence of sexual activity because of the "prudery" of society at the time. Don't mention sex, we're British! sort of thing...
Best,
Siobhán

[Cuervo]

Hi Siobhan,
Yes, with forensic sciences things probably have been different. This is a good point for everybody to realise how good is the advance of the sicience (which I´m sure everybody realises in this forum).
The point about maybe not to mention in the repport about the sexual intercourse is a good one. I always thought about JTR as a case as David Berkowitz, who mastrubated remebering the gun killings he commited before. As well, I always had the idea that with the organs of the women as thophies he might have masturbated same as Dahmer (sorry I always talk about this case beacause I find it very interesting and I´ve read a lot about it. I promisse not to mention it again, hehehe). Here in Spain we had similar cases, but with previous sexual intercourse with the victims.
Corey, I´ll, read your article. Thank you very much.
Siobhan, have you got anything published?
best

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,
Yes, with forensic sciences things probably have been different. This is a good point for everybody to realise how good is the advance of the sicience (which I´m sure everybody realises in this forum).
The point about maybe not to mention in the repport about the sexual intercourse is a good one. I always thought about JTR as a case as David Berkowitz, who mastrubated remebering the gun killings he commited before. As well, I always had the idea that with the organs of the women as thophies he might have masturbated same as Dahmer (sorry I always talk about this case beacause I find it very interesting and I´ve read a lot about it. I promisse not to mention it again, hehehe). Here in Spain we had similar cases, but with previous sexual intercourse with the victims.
Corey, I´ll, read your article. Thank you very much.
Siobhan, have you got anything published?
best

Yes, I've had a few things published. I'm hoping to have a JtR piece in summer issue of True Crime magazine based on my case study which would also include my five most likely suspects. Keeping fingers crossed that it will appear.
Here's an article on JtR I had published a few years ago in Ireland. Was Jack the Ripper Irish?

http://www.pdf-archive.com/2010/12/25/was-jack-the-ripper-irish-ios-article/was-jack-the-ripper-irish-ios-article.pdf

I had a fascination (which has not quite been cured) with Francis Tumblety as JtR so I understand your fascination with Dahmer! His crimes were a horror of horrors.

I am now fascinated by a new Jack the Ripper suspect called ROBERT MANN discovered by historian Mei Trow who wrote a book on him 2 years or so ago. The book is called: Jack the Ripper: Quest for a Killer.
Here's an article on Mann published in the Scotsman Newspaper a few years back:

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/39Morgue-attendant-was-Jack-The.5702521.jp

My blog is below. Warning: it's like an online cv!
Best,
Siobhán

http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

[Cuervo]

Thanks Siobhan
I´ll read everything. I already added your blog to favorites.
Ana

[Steven_Rex]

Hello, all,

I'm new to the forums, and have really enjoyed skimming through the discussions here. This particular thread has been of great interest - well done Siobhan for your very insightful original post! One thing I would like to add to the mix, however, is the importance of historical context. As a student of history, I'm all too aware of just how much beliefs, education and psychology can differ between time periods. With that in mind, I think it's worth considering the extent to which we can safely ascribe the mindset and motives of 'modern' serial killers to one operating in a culture that is, in reality, so alien to our own.

For example, if modern killers of this type are often loners, sexual deviants, or particularly likely to stick to a specific MO, can we really say with any surety that a killer in 1888 would be the same? I can't answer that, of course, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that a murderer operating in the Victorian period would have an entirely different set of values, norms, level of education and even cultural knowledge to one committing crimes in the 20th/21st century. With that in mind, it might be worth, perhaps, looking at known prostitute killers who were at work in a roughly contemporary time period.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hello, all,

I'm new to the forums, and have really enjoyed skimming through the discussions here. This particular thread has been of great interest - well done Siobhan for your very insightful original post! One thing I would like to add to the mix, however, is the importance of historical context. As a student of history, I'm all too aware of just how much beliefs, education and psychology can differ between time periods. With that in mind, I think it's worth considering the extent to which we can safely ascribe the mindset and motives of 'modern' serial killers to one operating in a culture that is, in reality, so alien to our own.

For example, if modern killers of this type are often loners, sexual deviants, or particularly likely to stick to a specific MO, can we really say with any surety that a killer in 1888 would be the same? I can't answer that, of course, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that a murderer operating in the Victorian period would have an entirely different set of values, norms, level of education and even cultural knowledge to one committing crimes in the 20th/21st century. With that in mind, it might be worth, perhaps, looking at known prostitute killers who were at work in a roughly contemporary time period.

Hi Steven Rex,
Welcome to the boards. Thanks for the compliment.
Given what you've said, you may be interested in the following recent thread which looks at a modern profile of JtR and people give their opinions on whether they are valid in hindsight if at all.
You can view the thread here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5528

Best,
Siobhán