Modern day prostitute killers & JtR

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Siobhan,

I am with Rob on this one, Bundy is a sexual killer, as was Jack the Ripper. There is a huge connection between the two killers, in fact I used Bundy in my essay. If you get around to reading it today.

Corey

Okay, but Bundy didn't kill prostitutes. Of course, I agree he was a "sexual killer".

But if I had wanted to cover a wide specturm of sexual killers I'd be in a zimmerframe at the end of it. I really wanted to keep my research under a specific framework.
Yes, I'm fascinated by Bundy and have followed documentaries and films on him. I will read your story when it arrives. Looking forward to it.


Best,
Siobhán

[robhouse]

Hello Corey,

Clearly, Bundy was a sexually motivated killer, as was JTR, but I think I am coming from a different angle. In my opinion, the primary thing that "defines" the Ripper is that he was a post-mortem mutilator. This is a fairly specific and rare subtype of serial killer, who is primarily motivated by a desire to mutilate a body after death. The term "lust murderer" is also used. This type of killer typically targets his mutilation at the sexual organs, breasts and abdomen, engages in evisceration, removes organs and body parts, engages in cannibalism, etc. So this type would be specifically differentiated from a sadistic killer, who is primarily interested in inflicting pain and torturing victims while alive. Sadistic killers are probably typically more manipulative and controlling. Lust murderers tend to be loners, with poor self image... they are also generally pretty primitive in terms of their thinking. Victimology often has more to do with opportunity and modus operandi than it does with underlying motive (although this may not be the case with Bundy.) This is why I questioned the prostitute victimology as being the primary criteria for inclusion in the analysis.

I am not one of those who think JTR was a charismatic, manipulative, and overly-clever killer.

RH

[corey123]

Hello Rob,

Indeed, I know he was a lust-murderer, and perhaps necro-sadist. Whilst the killer may not have been overly intellegent, I believe he wasn't without brains

p.s Did you ever by chance read my Examiner piece?

[robhouse]

Hi Corey,

I did read your article, and I enjoyed it. I agree with many of your conclusions in the first part of the essay, regarding the evolution of MO. It is also interesting to me to look at the earlier attacks and murder in the context of such a discussion. Emma Smith is interesting, as the insertion of an object into the woman's vagina, is fairly consistent with the type of killer JTR was. I had one question: you stated that Tabram had "eight wounds to the private parts"
and I was wondering what you based that on. Also, I think I differ slightly with you on Alice McKenzie, since I believe there is some evidence that the killer tried unsuccessfully to cut away the woman's undergarments to expose the abdomen, and also that he might have been interrupted while trying to do so.

The second part of your article, about narcissistic personality disorder, I was less convinced by. My main criticism of this idea is that many of the characteristics you cite are common to both NPD and anti-social personality disorder. I think it is really difficult to define exactly what was going on with the Ripper psychologically, since so little is known about him. But I do not think that is is possible to conclude he had NPD.Your answer to your question #5 is the crux of the issue. In my opinion, looking at Jack as a post-mortem mutilator is the key to understanding the type of killer he was. To understand his motives in mutilating, you have to look at this type of killer in a general sense. It is not so black and white as to say he did it to gain public attention, or to gain sexual gratification from a feeling of power over an individual. Again, you could say the same for a "normal" psychopath. So again, you need to analyzed the rather bizarre and toxic psychological and emotional make up of this type of individual.

Have you by any chance read a book called The Psychology of Lust Murder: Paraphilia, Sexual Killing, and Serial Homicide, by Catherine Purcell and Bruce A. Arrigo. It is available online at google books. You should check it out.

But congrats on the article anyway. It was very interesting and well written, despite the fact that I disagreed with your narcissism idea.

Rob H

[DVV]

Emma Smith is interesting, as the insertion of an object into the woman's vagina, is fairly consistent with the type of killer JTR was.
Rob H

Agreed.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Corey,
I just read your article in Examiner issue 5.
Your anaylsis of the excalation of JtR's modus operandi is fascinating.
As for the oddity of Stride's MO. Could it be possible that JtR slashed her while she was still standing because he was unable initially to subdue her (as he did with the other victims). Also, if she was moving, he might have been obliged to cut her from behind which would explain the difference in the knife going from right to left...
On the narcissism, I'm not so sure. You say yourself that it was not identified until fairly recently and that little is known of it - that patients can hoodwink their shrinks so that they miss it altogether.
But well done on the MO escalation. Excellent work.

Best, Siobhán

[Abby Normal]

My initial reaction was to rush off to research (which I will of course do) but I still think to add someone I discovered (through you) who fits the profile wouldn't be very scientific! The research was as random as possible with no bias or "angle" on my part in the creation of the profile.
It is still a possibility though to include Will Suff. Will get to you on it once I have checked your man out.
In fact, I have a suggestion. Why not include him in a future post (on this thread) under the categories used for each of the serial prostitute killers in the case study. Background, modus operandi, motive etc. That would be v. interesting but would involve work for you!
Why not have a go at it if you have the time? If not, I will do same.

Thanks again.

Siobhán

Hi
Unfortunately I dont have the time : (

But if you do would love to see what you come up with-he is very close to JtR.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi
Unfortunately I dont have the time : (

But if you do would love to see what you come up with-he is very close to JtR.

Stange that you should post just now.
I was just looking at a William Suff profile at the time.
He seems to fit my case study of prostitute serial killers and the profile I derived for JtR.
He was in a dysfuntional marriage, a loner, not well-educated, worked in a low-skilled job, had already come to attention of police for crimes unrelated to prostitute murder, liked to imitate those who wore military or police uniforms and finally the police mishandled the case in so far as Suff was the one supplying them with sandwiches during their investigation!
Yes indeed.

[Abby Normal]

Stange that you should post just now.
I was just looking at a William Suff profile at the time.
He seems to fit my case study of prostitute serial killers and the profile I derived for JtR.
He was in a dysfuntional marriage, a loner, not well-educated, worked in a low-skilled job, had already come to attention of police for crimes unrelated to prostitute murder, liked to imitate those who wore military or police uniforms and finally the police mishandled the case in so far as Suff was the one supplying them with sandwiches during their investigation!
Yes indeed.

All right I have a second.

William Suff: AKA The Riverside Prostitute Killer

-Lower clothing ripped or pulled up
-post mortem mutilations with knife
-Genital, abdominal, breast and face wounds
-took away trophies/body parts, including breasts
-most victims posed or left with legs spread
-victims under the influence of alcohol
-Death by aphyxiation/strangulation
-escalation in attacks. one later victim was found with a light bulb in her womb, another with stick in vagina
-removal of breasts-once place beside victim, one taken away.
-no or uncertain evidence of sexual assualt

-aged 36 at time of killings
-priors including murder of young daughter many years before
-dysfunctional childhood and marriage
-menial/Gov job, poor work history
-inserted himself into the investigation by delivering furniture to the task force investigation
-was able to convince prostitutes to accompany him eventhough the case was very public
-number of victims approx 20
-Stout, very powerful man
-mustache at time of serial killings

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

All right I have a second.

William Suff: AKA The Riverside Prostitute Killer

-Lower clothing ripped or pulled up
-post mortem mutilations with knife
-Genital, abdominal, breast and face wounds
-took away trophies/body parts, including breasts
-most victims posed or left with legs spread
-victims under the influence of alcohol
-Death by aphyxiation/strangulation
-escalation in attacks. one later victim was found with a light bulb in her womb, another with stick in vagina
-removal of breasts-once place beside victim, one taken away.
-no or uncertain evidence of sexual assualt

-aged 36 at time of killings
-priors including murder of young daughter many years before
-dysfunctional childhood and marriage
-menial/Gov job, poor work history
-inserted himself into the investigation by delivering furniture to the task force investigation
-was able to convince prostitutes to accompany him eventhough the case was very public
-number of victims approx 20
-Stout, very powerful man
-mustache at time of serial killings

Yes, the similarities between Suff and JtR are uncanny.
The brief biog (wikipedia) I read on Suff said he delivered sandwiches to police. Can you recommend a better source?

[Abby Normal]

Yes, the similarities between Suff and JtR are uncanny.
The brief biog (wikipedia) I read on Suff said he delivered sandwiches to police. Can you recommend a better source?

Trucrimelibrary
or Just google his name.
I think we have a modern time JtR. He even had a "double event" where he was interupted in his first and had to have the second-where he was succesfull.

If anyone can post his picture with his mustache when he was about 36-its uncanny.

[Fleetwood Mac]

This is basically the same type of statistical analysis of serial killers that was done by John Douglas, Robert Resseler and Ann Burgess, and which is presented in detail in their book Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives. In that instance, the FBI directly interviewed 39 sexually motivate killers (most were serial killers), and then collated their findings in the same type of way you are doing.
RH

I think much of what is put forward in these profiles is self-evident given a small amount of thought.

But the one that interests me in the original post is the incidence of convictions for other offences.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Trucrimelibrary
or Just google his name.
I think we have a modern time JtR. He even had a "double event" where he was interupted in his first and had to have the second-where he was succesfull.

If anyone can post his picture with his mustache when he was about 36-its uncanny.

Couldn't find moustache pic of Will Suff but he has a fat face in the one's I did find. We don't know what JtR looked like! The witness statements all contradict each other. Here's a pic I did up some time ago using the eyewitness accounts...(below)

I think much of what is put forward in these profiles is self-evident given a small amount of thought.

But the one that interests me in the original post is the incidence of convictions for other offences.

The point of my case study was to at least eliminate people from the long list of suspects.
I concluded from the new JtR profile created that those who had a good educational background and those who worked in the professions would have to be eliminated from the list. Given the profile, I deduced that there are now only five suspects left who could possibly have been the murderer
Best,
Siobhán

[corey123]

To Rob and Siobhan,

Many thanks for the words on my essay. In response to your quesiton Rob, I had to look and find how I came up with that solution as I hadn't thought of it for a good while Anyway, I now remember. I counted how many wounds Killeen noticed, and subtracted that from the total mentioned number of wounds, this left room for 18 wounds, and Killeen discussed only the torso wounds, though it was made clear in a report by D.S.S. that the other two target areas were the throat and private parts. In the end I found a news article in the Daily News, August 10th, that mentioned the number of the wounds, nine to the private parts(one was a gash), and nine to the throat. I wrote this in the essay if you remember:

Dr.Killeen’s report at the inquest was incomplete discussing only the torso wounds. An article in the Daily News, August 10, 1888 mentions the wounds to the lower body, and the wounds to the throat. In the report on September 5th, Donald Swanson wrote that the throat, abdomen, and the private parts were the target areas

I agree with both of you, the narcissism part was purely non-conclusive and was a pet-theory of my own. I just wished to share it as it had affected somewhat the account in part one.

Many thanks again for the replies.

[robhouse]

Hi Corey,

I still don't follow you. You said, "I found a news article in the Daily News, August 10th, that mentioned the number of the wounds, nine to the private parts(one was a gash), and nine to the throat." I have looked at this article and I do not see where it says there were "nine to the private parts."

I do agree that is is likely that there were several wounds in the private parts, but unless I am totally missing something, I don't think we know exactly how many wounds there were in the private parts. Also, I am not entirely clear on whether the precise number of wounds Killeen notes in the internal organs can be inferred to mean that the sum total of these equals the total number of stabs in the torso. I assume some of the stabs may have missed any organs, and Killeen thus might not have pointed these out in his summary of the autopsy. I also assume that Killeen described the gash wound in "the lower portion of the body," and perhaps the other wounds in the "private part," and that the newspapers omitted these details because they thought they were too obscene to print. I think this is fairly clear if you read various descriptions of Killeen's testimony. I also think that the gash wound in the "lower portion of the body" is in all probability a wound to the genitals, although this is not crtain.

RH