Hidden In Plain Sight

[Scorpio]

If JtR was a member of the Jewish community,as often claimed by respectable sources, why would he use the term Lipski?. Is this an example of a cultural in- joke?, or an attempt to conceal his identity by adopting the language of the more populous Gentile culture?.

[Scorpio]

We know that Aaron Kosminki's family life was troubled, so could using the term Lipski be an act of disowning his own identity and showing his anger and contempt at a family/culture that he felt had disowned him?.

[Robert]

Hi Scorpio

The trouble with that is, if memory serves Aaron objected to paying his dog-muzzling fine on the sabbath, which suggests he was a pious Jew in 1889.

[mariab]

Who said that Aaron Kozminksi ever used the term “Lipski“? It was BS who allegedly did this (according to Israel Schwartz).

[Scorpio]

No body said so, but if Kosminski is a valid suspect and Schwartz a valid and reliable witness, then the possibilty that Kosminski used the term, for whatever reason, exists.

[jason_c]

Hi Scorpio

The trouble with that is, if memory serves Aaron objected to paying his dog-muzzling fine on the sabbath, which suggests he was a pious Jew in 1889.

It could also be seen as an excuse not to pay the fine there and then. Kosminski was less than accurate when giving his name to the PC, either using a legitimate reason or he was chancing his arm.

Lipski wasnt a religious term anyway. It was used as an insult to Jews, not blasphemous.

[Robert]

Jason, "chancing his arm" is an unfortunate phrase to apply to Aaron.

[TomTomKent]

I didn't think it was the suspect who said the Lipski thing, but the second man Schwartz saw. But even if it did spring from the lips of one of a Jewish suspect, then I don't find it too far fetched. I have seen people of all colours and creeds using all kinds of racist and otherwise unsavoury terms to describe members of their own race, creed, religion or what ever. Jews calling other Jews unflattering terms, the same with arabs, muslims, afro-caribian and pretty much everybody else. I guess it is just human nature.

And that is assuming it was not a case of one sub-group with in the Eastern european Jews (let's say Polish for the sake of an example) not liking another group (Ukranian Jews as an example?). For them "Lipski" could (and this pulled out of my bum as pure speculation) not just refer to Jews, but Jews from a particular bit of London, or who emigrated from a particular region, or some other overly specific aspect that they thought applied to Lipski.


Either that or he was in the "ranting" phase of which ever mania drove him earlier than many anylists suspect at that point? Probably not, but worth a thought.

[Errata]

I just don't think it's terribly likely Jack the Ripper was Jewish.

And yeah, I'm Jewish and I don't like the idea of it on general principle. But it's really a numbers thing.

Jews were less than 1% of the population of London. It's not impossible, but it seems 99+% more likely to be a member of the rest of the population. Several statements about Jews in this case are unmitigated crap. And thats not terribly surprising, given a total lack of understanding on the part of the government and police.

And in a way that may be telling. If the police were seriously considering a Jew as a suspect, I would think they would have gotten some help in understanding the culture. It was offered, by the Chief Rabbi of London if I recall. But nobody took him up on it. And of course they wouldn't have learned about Judaism out of some altruistic view to not unjustly accuse someone, or to protect the community. They would have learned so they wouldn't have to take the word of a suspect who cites religion or culture as an alibi.

The Seaside Home Identification is a perfect example. It is either completely false, or the identifying witness completely snowed the cops on why he wouldn't testify. The reason stated is just outrageous. Had they checked with members of the Jewish community about the witness's reasons, they would have known it was crap. In fact there is a good probability that if the Jewish Community found out about it, they would have made his life a living hell until he decided to man up and identify the suspect.

But instead, evidently they just had to takes the witness's word for it. And any serious cop looking for an actual answer isn't going to let that situation persist.

So I highly doubt it. But I suppose anything is possible.

[jason_c]

Errata, your numbers are very misleading. In deepest darkest Whitechapel the numbers were much higher.

Im generally of the opinion that Jews and Gentiles were pretty much different sides of the same coin. Large amounts of bigotry, racism, religious intolerance were found in both communities. And in both cases each community had its own ethnic and religious divides.

I wish I could find the quote, but im sure it was from a contemporary policeman. He basically stated Jews and Gentiles blamed each other for the killings, both sides being willing to make up stories or jump on any rumour going.

Its interesting to note the witness statements. Jews generally described the suspect as Gentile. The "locals" tended to ID the suspect as Jewish or "foreign."

[The Good Michael]

Why would a Jew be sensitive about another Jew being Jack the Ripper now? It's not as if anyone at all thinks there's a connection between all Jews and Jack the Ripper. If the killer were a Baptist minister, would all Baptists be disparaged against?

Mike

[Scorpio]

I started this thread after considering the suspect Aaron Kosminski and how the contemporary evidence might relate to him. Aaron had an identity, as all people do, but it makes little difference whether that identity is Jewish, Irish Catholic working class, or protestant upper middle-class Anlgo-Saxon, because its not about specifics, but how people might react when that social identity is possibly the cause of Strife.

[Errata]

Why would a Jew be sensitive about another Jew being Jack the Ripper now? It's not as if anyone at all thinks there's a connection between all Jews and Jack the Ripper. If the killer were a Baptist minister, would all Baptists be disparaged against?

Mike

You would think that in this day and age nobody would blame Jews for Jack the Ripper. Unfortunately you would be quite wrong.

As far as why be sensitive about it?

I'm not really sure I can articulate why. And I'm not sure that sensitive is really the word, maybe disappointed. Maybe hurt. It's not like Jews can't be bad people. And I can really only speak for myself on this, but for some reason, when they are bad people there's sort of a "great. Here we go again" kind of thing. There are people in the world who are not rational about Jews. And they make our lives harder. Sort of ranging from nuisance to "I need to call the cops" harder. And you would probably be astonished at the things that have been said to me. But for example. When Bernie Madoff got caught my first thought was "Wow. What a d*ck". My second thought was "Great. I'm gonna catch hell for this." And I did.

Bernie Madoff, kapos, Bugsy Siegel, David Greenglass, it's not like we don't know the bad guys exist in our culture. But if a Jew was Jack the Ripper, creating massive ill will towards the Jewish community who were already under attack, then that's a little hurtful. It will be seen as a justification of the hatred and violence towards the community by some people. And quite frankly I'm a little tired of those people. And a little put out at anyone, even 100 years dead, who puts those people in my way.

And that's totally off topic, so I will shut up now.

[The Good Michael]

Errata,

The funny thing is, the people you've mentioned, with the exception of Siegel, are only known as crooks. Siegel would be known as having been Jewish because of the Jewish and Sicilian mobs. The others, just crooks. It may be just yourself who even cares about such things. The problem with that kind of thinking is that it does interfere with looking at suspects and possibilities if people put up walls. It happened with Hutchinson and possible family members and it seems to have happened with a Mccarthy who was too thin-skinned to even answer questions. It's just about figuring out things and ain't no finger-pointing at ethnicities 'round here.

Mike

[Errata]

It's just about figuring out things and ain't no finger-pointing at ethnicities 'round here.

Mike

You're right of course. And I certainly don't expect any recriminations here. But you asked why I might be sensitive, and that is why. I was not trying to say that anyone here would be judgemental. Just that I personally would be kinda pissed If he was.

I'm not really suspect motivated anyway. I'm more about whys than whos. My personal theory is that several cops knew Jack the Ripper, they just never considered him a suspect. He was just a friendly guy who bought them drinks and talked to the about the murders. In my mind, given the gulf between the jewish community and the rest of the East End, that would make him at least not visibly jewish or foreign. Otherwise he would stand out, and make that kind of behaviour odd.

And I do think the Seaside Home identification narrative is crap. And I am absolutely convinced that the assorted theories where Jews banded together to protect or police one of their own are patently untrue. And I'm still on the side of statistics, despite the high concentration of Jews in the East End. There were 45,000 in all of London. And they weren't all in the East End. It's just large enough of a population that not all Jews know each other, but small enough that If one of them was butchering prostitutes, it would get around pretty quickly.

So I actually just don't think JtR was Jewish. But if he was, would he shout "Lipski" to deflect suspicion? In a heartbeat. He's cutting women in half, he's creating enormous problems for his own community, why WOULDN'T he? Clearly his moral compass is already broken.

anyway. Thems my thoughts.