reddish hankerchief

[Fleetwood Mac]

no. This is utterly baffling. Have you quite taken leave of your senses? It's scarcely a wonder people barely come on here anymore, with this type of carry-on as commonplace as it's become. Ask yourself: have you really nothing better to do to pass the time?

Claire....that's not right. Ruby has as much right to follow a lead......no matter what other people feel about it....as anyone else. If you don't like her posts....then rather than give her a hard time just move on. Not good form.

[Rubyretro]

no. This is utterly baffling. Have you quite taken leave of your senses? It's scarcely a wonder people barely come on here anymore, with this type of carry-on as commonplace as it's become. Ask yourself: have you really nothing better to do to pass the time?

Thank you Fleetwood.

Claire -just for the record- I spent most of last week and the week before working away from home and sleeping in an hotel, with no chat forums in sight. So I was thrilled yesterday, to allow myself the luxury of having nothing better to do than to plonk myself down infront of the computer and indulge. My hobby is buying and selling vintage clothes at flea markets and on e-bay, and therefore I thouroughly enjoyed
browsing sites on victorian costume to establish what the term 'hadkerchief' would be describing, when used by a lower class victorian man.

The person who wrote the article on Dutfield's yard and Liz Stride in the Examiner, was in fact using the term correctly when describing the scarf around Liz's neck.

It's a bit of 'general knowledge' that might interest some people.

It's also important to me to show that when GH described A Man as offering MJK a reddish handkerchief, he was describing a bandana sized bit of cloth, which would correspond to scarf worn around the neck of the man seen by
Joseph Lawende in Mitre Square : I maintain that he dropped the handkerchief reference into his witness statement precisely so it could be inferred that A Man and Sailor Man could be one and the same man.

I don't see how having 'ordinary' GH as your favourite suspect -a man who would surely have been a favourite Police suspect, had it been a modern day
murder enquiry -equates with Steven Knight's conspiracy theory ?

[Fleetwood Mac]

It's also important to me to show that when GH described A Man as offering MJK a reddish handkerchief, he was describing a bandana sized bit of cloth, which would correspond to scarf worn around the neck of the man seen by
Joseph Lawende in Mitre Square : I maintain that he dropped the handkerchief reference into his witness statement precisely so it could be inferred that A Man and Sailor Man could be one and the same man.

I don't see how having 'ordinary' GH as your favourite suspect -a man who would surely have been a favourite Police suspect, had it been a modern day
murder enquiry -equates with Steven Knight's conspiracy theory ?

Problem being......neckerchiefs were fashionable in the 1880s.....many a man would have worn them.....so Hutch's neckerchief comment could quite easily be an obvious item to throw in. And if....as you say....the idea was to link this to 'sailor man' then why not describe a sailor at Miller's Court?

The police would certainly have wanted to check out where he was on the nights of the other murders but based on what we know.....Blotchy would have been the one who they would have wanted to eliminate first and foremost.....there is a difference between haning around the court and being in the room. If Kelly has cuts on her arms....it suggests the MO was different....she was lying down in bed.....which suggests to me he was in bed with her.....which would lay claim to Blotchy paying for the night and waiting for her to go to sleep.

[Rubyretro]

Fleetwood -you are absolutely right that red hadkerchieves must have been a very common article, and it appears to be one of the most popular colours
at the time. So concretely it means nothing at all ; certainly it proves nothing.

On the other hand, IF you are one of the people that believe that Hutch made up his witness statement, and more importantly IF you are one of those that have him as favourite suspect for JtR, than every phrase that he made up is of interest, whether it was conciously planned details or subconcious details.

I think that GH was leading the Police to believe that A Man was a prime suspect (I saw him go into the room, and despite hanging about for 3/4 of an hour, I didn't see him come out -in the right timespan). 'Blotchy' had been witnessed by someone else -and why would MJK bring A Man home if Blotchy was already in her bed ? The Police appear to have gone around town looking for A Man, and not Blotchy.

So, IF Hutch made up A Man, what was his motive for 'painting' the handkerchief scene with MJK in ?- be it concious or subconcious ? Is not the answer that he knew that Lawende had described such an article and so he placed it on the person of his fictitious suspect. He was clever, and so he didn't place the handkerchief in a blatent way around the neck, but nevertheless planted a suggestion to link Lawende's suspect to his, in a subtle enough way.

So, why wouldn't GH simply describe his false 'suspect' as Sailor man ?

Well, he wouldn't if he wanted to reinforce the Police sentiment that JtR was Jewish. Afterall, either he was anti-semite himself (if you believe like Me that he targetted the clubs in Berner Street and near Mitre Square and the GSG -whether he actually wrote it himself or not). I'm very interested in the situation as researched by Lynn Cates regarding these groups of
Jewish Socialist Workers.

Then again, Sailorman might have been 'himself', GH...although I think that Lawende didn't get a good enough description..and therefore GH amused himself by sending the Police off in a different direction, and playing up to their prejudices.

It might have been very difficult for the Police to establish ironclad alibis for GH and the other murders ; for example had Police questioned the men in GH's usual lodging house on his whereabouts on the night of MJK's murder, and had he not been spotted by someone that passed him regularly (I think), and risked to identify him, would the men not have answered 'not here mate -gone down to Romford' ? If there had been witnesses to prove that he had infact been in Romford and no one knew when he got back, he could have disappeared off the radar for long enough to commit murder.

[Abby Normal]

Fleetwood -you are absolutely right that red hadkerchieves must have been a very common article, and it appears to be one of the most popular colours
at the time. So concretely it means nothing at all ; certainly it proves nothing.

On the other hand, IF you are one of the people that believe that Hutch made up his witness statement, and more importantly IF you are one of those that have him as favourite suspect for JtR, than every phrase that he made up is of interest, whether it was conciously planned details or subconcious details.

I think that GH was leading the Police to believe that A Man was a prime suspect (I saw him go into the room, and despite hanging about for 3/4 of an hour, I didn't see him come out -in the right timespan). 'Blotchy' had been witnessed by someone else -and why would MJK bring A Man home if Blotchy was already in her bed ? The Police appear to have gone around town looking for A Man, and not Blotchy.

So, IF Hutch made up A Man, what was his motive for 'painting' the handkerchief scene with MJK in ?- be it concious or subconcious ? Is not the answer that he knew that Lawende had described such an article and so he placed it on the person of his fictitious suspect. He was clever, and so he didn't place the handkerchief in a blatent way around the neck, but nevertheless planted a suggestion to link Lawende's suspect to his, in a subtle enough way.

So, why wouldn't GH simply describe his false 'suspect' as Sailor man ?

Well, he wouldn't if he wanted to reinforce the Police sentiment that JtR was Jewish. Afterall, either he was anti-semite himself (if you believe like Me that he targetted the clubs in Berner Street and near Mitre Square and the GSG -whether he actually wrote it himself or not). I'm very interested in the situation as researched by Lynn Cates regarding these groups of
Jewish Socialist Workers.

Then again, Sailorman might have been 'himself', GH...although I think that Lawende didn't get a good enough description..and therefore GH amused himself by sending the Police off in a different direction, and playing up to their prejudices.

It might have been very difficult for the Police to establish ironclad alibis for GH and the other murders ; for example had Police questioned the men in GH's usual lodging house on his whereabouts on the night of MJK's murder, and had he not been spotted by someone that passed him regularly (I think), and risked to identify him, would the men not have answered 'not here mate -gone down to Romford' ? If there had been witnesses to prove that he had infact been in Romford and no one knew when he got back, he could have disappeared off the radar for long enough to commit murder.

Hi Ruby

So, why wouldn't GH simply describe his false 'suspect' as Sailor man ?

Well, because if Lawende saw Sailorman/GH/JtR then GH would be describing himself, of course!


Which begs the question-Do you know if there is a physical description of GH anywhere? I don't beleive i have ever seen one.

[Rubyretro]

Hi Abby, there doesn't seem to be a complete description of GH, but there are various details :

His age was given as 28 -that might not be correct, but we can assume that it's approximatively right.

He was described as being about 5'5" and stout by Mrs Lewis. Height is difficult to judge, and 5'5" was probably about average at the time -we can infer not tiny and not tall and thin -but 5'5" must stay approximative.

Stout probably means muscular rather than 'fat' -this was a man who worked as a labourer, had humped beer barrels, and said that he'd walked back from Romford (which the Police apparently accepted). We can deduce that he was fit.

He was described as 'having the appearance of a military man' -again, fit, I imagine, muscular, good posture, smartish -maybe there was a 'look' that soldiers had at the time ?

He had a moustache.

He was a gentile.

He appears to have brown hair in illustrations, but whether that was dark brown, light brown, and what his complexion was like, I don't know.

Mrs Lewis described him as wearing a 'wide awake hat', but pictures show him in a 'billycock' -both in an overcoat, and a long waistcoat and cutaway -but how accurate they are, I don't know. Illustrations that can be compared to photos are quite accurate. I would imagine him to be quite dapper.

He had (supposedly) worked as a groom, and photos of contempory grooms show them standing straight (from riding) and smart -the 'military' description, may only stem from this.

As he was poor -unstable work and living in a lodging house -he might have looked like any number of men in the street -
variously 'shabby genteel' (by posture and dapperness), like a docker or market worker (if he had labouring jobs in such places, and defined muscles) or even aggressive (the soldier aspect).

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, there doesn't seem to be a complete description of GH, but there are various details :

His age was given as 28 -that might not be correct, but we can assume that it's approximatively right.

He was described as being about 5'5" and stout by Mrs Lewis. Height is difficult to judge, and 5'5" was probably about average at the time -we can infer not tiny and not tall and thin -but 5'5" must stay approximative.

Stout probably means muscular rather than 'fat' -this was a man who worked as a labourer, had humped beer barrels, and said that he'd walked back from Romford (which the Police apparently accepted). We can deduce that he was fit.

He was described as 'having the appearance of a military man' -again, fit, I imagine, muscular, good posture, smartish -maybe there was a 'look' that soldiers had at the time ?

He had a moustache.

He was a gentile.

He appears to have brown hair in illustrations, but whether that was dark brown, light brown, and what his complexion was like, I don't know.

Mrs Lewis described him as wearing a 'wide awake hat', but pictures show him in a 'billycock' -both in an overcoat, and a long waistcoat and cutaway -but how accurate they are, I don't know. Illustrations that can be compared to photos are quite accurate. I would imagine him to be quite dapper.

He had (supposedly) worked as a groom, and photos of contempory grooms show them standing straight (from riding) and smart -the 'military' description, may only stem from this.

As he was poor -unstable work and living in a lodging house -he might have looked like any number of men in the street -
variously 'shabby genteel' (by posture and dapperness), like a docker or market worker (if he had labouring jobs in such places, and defined muscles) or even aggressive (the soldier aspect).

Thanks Ruby