reddish hankerchief

[Rubyretro]

I was just reading the 'Examiner', and the fascinating article on Liz Stride's murder in Dutfield's yard.

There is a description of the scarf around her neck being frayed due to coming in contact with a knife, and later on in the same paragraph this same scarf was described as a 'handkerchief'.

I have no problem with that description, but It struck a resononce with Me
because I did enter into an argument with someone on these forums over the definitions of the word handkerchief' and 'Scarf' about GH's description of
A Man's red 'Handkerchief' and Lawende's description of a putitive JTR wearing a reddish scarf (I maintain that Hutch wanted to establish a link for the Police between the two).

I just want to point out that I'm not so 'loony' or 'wishful thinking' as to want to use the same term for both articles with no foundation ; A handkerchief was big enough, at the time , to fold into a triangle and wear around your neck.

[Fisherman]

Hi Rubyretro!

Try and google pictures for "handkerchief scarf" and see what you come up with, thatīs my advice. I always thought that such a garment would equal a smallish scarf, but it would seem that is dead wrong, at least when it comes to how the expression is used today!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is a description of the scarf around her neck being frayed due to coming in contact with a knife, and later on in the same paragraph this same scarf was described as a 'handkerchief'.

A handerkerchief would not fit round the neck of a small stoat....never mind a fully fledged human being.

It couldn't possibly. A neckerchief would of course....but then that's a different matter....and to all intents and purposes a neckerchief is not a scarf......the one consistent feature is that they both fit round the neck.

A neckerchief...when compared with the scarf is a tight fitting neck garment.....and...yes....there's a good chance it would be frayed when cutting someone's neck...would be difficult to not do so.

[claire]

See, this is why I despair sometimes. You are really (really?) going to use a recently authored article about a completely separate issue to argue for contemporary (ie. 1888) imprecision of the use of a word? For all the merits of the article concerned, I don't think that the author(s) would claim etymological precision of their narrative; in many ways, the switch to the use of the word 'handkerchief' in the paragraph concerned creates a certain level of ambiguity, and I suspect it was selected for the simple reason that using 'scarf' would mean that word had been used 3 times in 2 lines.

I suspect, anyhow, you don't care about the real use; all this is about is creating an opening for the resurrection of that bizarre Hutchinson's-man-had-a-red-handkerchief-and-Lawende's-had-a-red-scarf-so-that-means-Hutchinson-murdered-MJ-and-left-his-scarf-behind-in-her-room scenario.

Stephen Knight, where are you? All is forgiven.

[Rubyretro]

Henry Mayhew : Life of a Coster Lad :

He was dressed in all the slang beauty of his class, with a bright red handkerchief and unexceptionable boots.

Mayhew again :

"Even if a costermonger has two or three silk handkerchiefs by him already, he seldom hesitates to buy another, when tempted with a bright showy pattern hanging from a Field-lane door-post".

word used interchangably with neckerchief and kerchief.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Henry Mayhew : Life of a Coster Lad :

Neckerchiefs were fashionable among women in the 1880s. Regardless of the terms....there were different kinds and none of those are what we would deem to be a handkerchief. Some were looser fitting than others......more like a scarf.

So....I'll give you this at least Ruby.....what we deem to be a scarf...or a neckerchief....or a handkerchief today.....were not necessarily the same as the 1880s. Seems as with any facet of language....these descriptions and terms evolved.

On reflection....it could have been what we deem today to be a scarf...or it could have been the bright red kinds that you associate with a sailor of that time.....i.e. tied tightish around the neck with a knot at the side.

My understanding is that there was a knot to the side of Stride's neck.....which suggests a neckerchief rather than a scarf.....in today's terms....so.....for me....whatever the terms were then.....the item we are talking about is a neckerchief in today's terms.

[Rubyretro]

Rural Life in Victorian England : "

A brightly-coloured handkerchief would be worn
tied round the neck to protect against sunburn
or cold. A hat was always worn – this would be
a ‘wideawake’, or later a bowler, billy-**** or a
cap, depending on the wearer’s age, status
and the weather".

https://www.classicalroadshow.org/.../Widecombe%20history%20project2.pdf

[Rubyretro]

The Probert Encyclopedia of Costume : "

Properly, a bandanna is a silk pocket handkerchief. The name later developed to include cotton handkerchiefs with a dark ground of Turkey red or blue, decorated with a spotted pattern of white or yellow dots. Later the term came to be applied to such a handkerchief worn tied around the head or neck.

[Rubyretro]

New Criminologist (writing about Annie Chapman's murder) :Under the headline

“The Horrors of the East End - another fiendish crime,” the article continues in a tone no red-top would dare emulate today: “The throat was cut open in a foul manner - so deep, in fact, that the murderer, evidently thinking he had severed the head from the body, tied a handkerchief round so as to keep it on... The fiendish work was completed by the murderer tying part of the entrails round the victim’s neck.”

(obviously not true , but quoting a contempory newspaper)

[Rubyretro]

Wikipedia 'Red Barn Murder' :

Evidence was uncovered to implicate Corder in the crime: his green handkerchief was discovered around the body's neck.[3]

[Rubyretro]

Thesaurus.com :

Main Entry: handkerchief
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: personal cloth
Synonyms: bandana, hankie, neckerchief, scarf

[Rubyretro]

photo of handkerchief 1800-1900 BBC History (photo Antique's roadshow).
Note size in relation to person's hand.

[Rubyretro]

Glossary of 18th Century Costume Terminology :

handkerchief 1) Handkerchief; see pocket handkerchief. 2) Neck handkerchief. Also called neck handkerchief, neckerchief, neckatee, (French) fichu, etc. "Handkerchief" was the most common term. Confusing? The people whose fault it is have been dead for two hundred years. The French word fichu was not used by English speakers until after the Revolutionary War. 3) rare Kerchief. (Handkerchiefs were very rarely worn on the head.) ["Kerchief" comes from French couvre chef, "cover the head", so a neck handkerchief is a cover for the head for the hand for the neck. Ain't language great?]

etc etc etc

[Rubyretro]

- no comments ? -( not even a nasty joke about the typo in the Thread title ?)

[claire]

- no comments ? -( not even a nasty joke about the typo in the Thread title ?)

no. This is utterly baffling. Have you quite taken leave of your senses? It's scarcely a wonder people barely come on here anymore, with this type of carry-on as commonplace as it's become. Ask yourself: have you really nothing better to do to pass the time?