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pc edward watkins (881-city police) was he the ripper, poss new evidence.

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  • pc edward watkins (881-city police) was he the ripper, poss new evidence.

    PC EDWARD WATKINS (881 – CITY POLICE)



    Was he the Ripper? Possible new evidence.



    Hello folks, I’m Lynsey from Hemel Hempstead. My father is Chas aged 75, also from Hemel. Whilst surfing the web at Christmas we came across @Jack the Ripper@ page and PC Edward Watkins interest. Chas was very interested in the Watkins for the reasons related later.



    Chas is completely Laptop/Computer illiterate and has asked me to tell his most interesting story and follows thus:



    ‘I am 75 years of age but at the tail end of the 1939-1945 war, when a young rogue of 10-11, myself and two other pals were playing in a bomb damaged house in a road off Brick Lane, Whitechapel. On this particular day we had lit a bonfire in an old dustbin in the back yard of this bomb damaged house. The complete back of the house had been blown away exposing the upstairs floor level and the side view of the stairs. As the cry for “any more wood” went up for the fire, two of us dived into the derelict house to scavenge any burnable material. I turned my attention to damaged floor boards under the staircase. I could see holed and splintered woodwork of what was left of the under stairs cupboard. I began pulling at the damaged floorboards and after removing just a couple of boards noticed a cardboard box complete with lid. I threw down the firewood I had just collected and proceeded to remove the box from under the edge of the floorboards. The lid was slightly damaged but in picking up the box noticed it was crumbling with decay at one end where it had been stood on the earthen floor below the floorboards. At this point I noticed it was heavy and something was rattling around inside. The next instance I had the lid off and in the same instance my two mates had leapt to my side and were shouting “ What is it, what is it, show us and share it” This was the first time I held the contents. In the box was two knives and one truncheon. The first knife I would describe as a butchers knife with a blade about 2” wide and 14” to 16” long with a wooden handle bound with a type of string a butcher would use to tie up a joint of meat. The second knife I would describe as a dagger, the type a boy scout would wear down his sock or belt and about 9” long. The third and I think the most interesting was a truncheon 18” long made of unpolished plain wood. At this point I decided to share out the booty but having been forbidden to own a knife or catapult by my parents I decided to keep the truncheon for myself. (On arriving home my parents immediately confiscated it the truncheon and it was put on top of the wardrobe in their bedroom and used once a year for breaking walnuts at Christmas until I got married and it was passed back to me and has been put to the same use till this very day!)

    My two mates had to toss for the two knives and became gloating owners of their knives for a short time until they started to argue who had the best as one was rusty in places as was the other but to a lesser degree. In all the excitement I noticed the box had once held a doll and had been made somewhere in Germany according to the label. The box which was approx 18”x18”x6” was then dispatched to the fire along with the splintered floorboards.



    Now to my truncheon - The truncheon is 18” long and made of unpolished wood, bored out at the work end and filled with lead. Now to my point along one side of it is embossed: PC 881 CITY POLICE and on the other side EDWARD WATKINS.



    Now, Last year whilst watching a Ripper film it mentioned PC Edward Watkins as the constable who found Mary Eddow’s body. At first I could not believe what I had just heard, the reason being I have in my possession for 64 years a truncheon which is embossed as above.



    Around this time the Museum of London had a Jack the Ripper exhibition and I loaned the truncheon to them who sent it to the London Police Museum who in turn returned it with comments “This was not a London Police issue truncheon” and apparently had no interest. Now what interests me is:

    Watkins found Mary Eddow’s body near the Brick Lane area where I found the knives
    What was City Police doing in Whitechapel off his beat area
    Watkins lived in Hamilton Buildings near to where the knives etc were found
    With view to Watkins being caught in an indecent act on duty, why was he not a suspect.
    Why were these weapons hidden so conveniently to the murder area.




    I am sure there will now be many more questions to be answered!

    Hoping this experience is of interest to your Ripper enthusiasts .'



    Chas Wilson

    Hemel Hempstead

  • #2
    Hey Chas,

    Let me correct some of your facts. Watkins did not find Catherine Eddowes in the Metropolitan district, he found her on his beat in Mitre Square, in the City of London. His beat did indeed go through Mitre Square, as is shown below.

    Hope it helps and welcome to the forums.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by corey123; 04-25-2010, 07:36 AM.
    Washington Irving:

    "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

    Stratford-on-Avon

    Comment


    • #3
      Why is the story written as if it were some BBC sensationalism, rather than matter-of-fact? It conjures suspicions.

      Mike
      huh?

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi, Lynsey and Chas, welcome to Casebook!

        That's quite an interesting story. I'm sure you know that people on the forums hear all kinds of stories over the years and so develop a certain level of skepticism... I hope you are prepared for it.

        >>Are you going to post photos?

        Thanks and best regards,
        Archaic

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Chas,

          With respect, their are some errors in your post.

          Ive studied Watkins for some time and have spoken to some of his suspected relatives.

          Though Im passing comment on something Ive not seen, the description you give though does not match a City Police issue truncheon.

          Watkins offence on having sexual intercourse whilst on duty happened many years prior to 88 and, in fact, his service record since that offence in 1870s (I cannot recall the exact date off hand, sorry) was quite good. Watkins wasnt the first PC and nor the last to commit such a deed. This is no reason to suspect him as a murderer.

          I could go on however if you wish to discuss this further please feel free to contact me.

          Cheers
          Monty
          Last edited by Monty; 04-25-2010, 10:27 AM.
          Monty

          https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

          Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

          http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Lindsey,
            A fascinating tale to say the least, but I feel it will be frowned upon as somewhat suspicious, regarding its authenticity.
            I am however extremely intrested, especially in the engraving of the truncheon, but even so have a niggling feeling that [ as already pointed out ] the story is expressed far to dramatic,and to be honest, comes across as either a advertisement for a sale, or a new version of 'look what I found', not a diary...but a truncheon.
            However leaving beside all my negative feedback, I am still intrested in futher correspondence from you on Casebook regarding this matter, and I sincerley hope that other members will endeavour to show respect.
            Regards Richard.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by corey123 View Post
              His beat did indeed go through Mitre Square, as is shown below.

              Hope it helps and welcome to the forums.
              Hmm, those graphics look mighty familiar....

              Andrew

              Comment


              • #8
                First of all, I see nothing suspicious in this gentleman's story. The simple mistakes he makes argue against deliberate fabrication, and the tale of how he discovered the club and knives has the ring of truth to it. Now what about that truncheon? Assuming it has Watkins' name and number on it, why should we not admit the possiblity that it is legitimate? Chas states the London police told him the club was not "police issue" equipment, but is it not possible that officers at that time were allowed to carry their own truncheons if they wished? And if this particular truncheon did belong to P.C. Watkins, why would he have hidden it with two knives under a stairway on Brick Lane?

                Frankly, I've long had my own suspicians about Watkins, not that he was the Ripper, but that he came upon the Ripper in the act of murdering Eddowes. This story of a Watkins police truncheon may not prove anything, but it deserves to be taken seriously, I think, until proven otherwise.
                "We reach. We grasp. And what is left at the end? A shadow."
                Sherlock Holmes, The Retired Colourman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dr Watson,

                  I agree. However Watkins retired on 28th May 1896 and was required to hand his equipment in on the same day. That said its not unknown that certain pieces were kept as mementos.

                  Corey, Angela, Chas,

                  Just for info, Watkins joined the Metropolitan force on 31st October 1870 and left on 15th May 1871 to join the City force.

                  He was a Met bobbie for a short while.

                  Monty
                  Monty

                  https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                  Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As interesting as the story is, i'm afraid the suggestion that Jack the Ripper was a police officer has been around for a long, long time.....while it's not entirely without merit, Watkins is not much of a suspect and the "evidence" that you posted is far from being conclusive. Really, it sounds more like Watkins was the victim of being in wrong place at the wrong time more than anything. Like a lot of our witnesses.

                    If any police officer should be viewed with a degree of suspicion on the night of the Double Event, it should be PC Harvey.....his testimony is somewhat odd, but even then, that's just clutching at straws.

                    Still, an interesting find....

                    Cheers,
                    Adam.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Andrew Firth View Post
                      Hmm, those graphics look mighty familiar...
                      Hi Andrew,

                      Yes. Remember the many hours you spent travelling to London to take the photograph? The hours you spent on the graphics when you returned? The feeling of satisfaction you had when you finished the job? Well, that image is in Corey's "collection" now, and he's going to use it when and where he likes.

                      To be fair to him, he does credit you in post #20 on this thread...

                      London Police (re-opened)

                      ... where he used the same image ... and I reckon that he doesn't own the originals of his "collection" of H-Division CID Officers, reproduced in post #21, particularly in view of the fact that they are identical to those posted on this thread [click], some time previously.

                      Regards,

                      Mark

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        this story was by no means a "look at me, look at me" story, my father simply wanted to give all the circumstances under which the truncheon was found. he openly admits that he has been told it was not a standard issue.
                        the information is there for you to pull from it what you like,
                        and thank you dr john watson, it may be something, it may not, but deserves a mention.

                        thanks,
                        lynsey
                        Last edited by lynseyjo; 04-25-2010, 12:49 PM. Reason: read better

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          have spoken to my dad, should be able to get photos of truncheon up within the week for those who are intrested.

                          thanks,
                          lynsey

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lynseyjo View Post
                            have spoken to my dad, should be able to get photos of truncheon up within the week for those who are intrested.

                            thanks,
                            lynsey
                            Dear Lynsey,
                            An interesting story. I look forward to seeing the pictures.

                            Best wishes,

                            Steve.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Any chance that it could have been presented to him by his mates on the occasion of his retirement, like Abberline's walking stick?

                              Comment

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