Face of the Ripper?

[Adam Went]

Clair:

Seem to vaguely remember something about that Romanov DNA thing - weren't they trying to look for the bones of Anastasia to prove that she really did die with the family and didn't escape as the legend goes?

In any case, that was 30 years after the JTR murders....more chance of DNA surviving.

Ben:

On Wolff Levisohn's statement....
Levisohn's actual words were: "There he sits! That is his description. He has not altered from the day he came to England;he has not even a grey hair. Always the same - same la-di-da, high hat and umbrella"

Anyway, on applying modern science to the JTR case, almost every attempt to do so thus far, if not every attempt, has failed dismally or come up short. As I said before, you'd have to have something to match the DNA to even if you could get DNA off the victim's clothing, many of the suspects vanished or got cremated, and for those who died shortly after the murders there'd probably be nothing left of them to extract DNA from anyway - and you'd need permission. I'm not sure if I was a descendant of a Ripper suspect I'd be giving my DNA - who wants to know that they're related to JTR!?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Ben]

Hi Adam,

Levisohn's actual words were: "There he sits! That is his description. He has not altered from the day he came to England;he has not even a grey hair. Always the same - same la-di-da, high hat and umbrella"

Unfortunately, there's no evidence that these were Levishon's actual words. His original testimony contains no reference to an umbrella and certainly doesn't include the quote referred to above: "He has not altered from the day he came to England". Its origin remains something of a mystery.

All the best,
Ben

[Adam Went]

Hey Ben,

Then I'm not sure where the mis-quote could have come from. It's quoted in exactly that way in Sugden as well.

I don't think Lucy Baderski ever mentioned that he had changed his appearance since she first met him in 1889, either....he certainly looked older than his actual age, IMO, which does help when matching him to witness descriptions.

Cheers,
Adam.

[clair]

Ya know something some of you have some of the same interest's as i do.

LOL, Sara. Someone said that the interest in JtR is because he is a gateway to the LVP, and what a fascinating period it was. Those weird mustaches for one thing! According to the Telegraph (02/Oct/2006) the LVP was the heyday for them (until 1916, it was compulsory for all British Army officers to have one): " In the gentlemen's clubs of St James's, to appear with a naked upper lip was as unacceptable as forgetting to put on your trousers, and probably rarer."

[Ben]

Hi Adam,

Yes, the inclusion of the quote in Sugden's book is perplexing since no such observation is attributed to Levishon the police court transcripts as provided by H.L. Adam. Rather, the gist of the latter's observation seemed to be that Klosowski's appearance had changed by 1894 inasmuch as he had developed a penchant for flashy dressing - possibly cultivated during his American travels - and that he had not changed since then.

I would say that Klosowski looked roughly the age he was at the time his photographs were taken, but your mileage may vary, of course.

Best regards,
Ben

[clair]

Clair:

Seem to vaguely remember something about that Romanov DNA thing - weren't they trying to look for the bones of Anastasia to prove that she really did die with the family and didn't escape as the legend goes?

In any case, that was 30 years after the JTR murders....more chance of DNA surviving.

I seem to recall that they positively identified the Romanov daughters by matching mitrochondrial DNA sequences from bones found with that of Prince Philip. I don't know if the main purpose was to nail the Anastasia legend, though.

Regarding the shawl: according to the documentary, the researchers hoped to match DNA from it to that of descendants of Eddowes (who were traced and agreed to give samples for comparison). Any other DNA also found on the shawl would then be stored for comparison with any future evidence which emerged. But alas, no DNA was found on the shawl - so I guess that closes that particular line of enquiry!

[belinda]

Re Anastasia /Anna Anderson

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4061

This is a particular interest of mine

[SaraCarter33]

LOL, Sara. Someone said that the interest in JtR is because he is a gateway to the LVP, and what a fascinating period it was. Those weird mustaches for one thing! According to the Telegraph (02/Oct/2006) the LVP was the heyday for them (until 1916, it was compulsory for all British Army officers to have one): " In the gentlemen's clubs of St James's, to appear with a naked upper lip was as unacceptable as forgetting to put on your trousers, and probably rarer."

Very interesting moustache that dude has lol. i was lurking around this board before i decided to join it, And i have learned a heck of alot from you all and, the casebook site also I have enjoyed reading everyone's opinion on Jack the Ripper.what little knowledge i know about it i've learned from tv and here.

[Hunter]

Hi Sara,

Just want to welcome you the the forum and I hope, if we are not at least educational we are entertaining.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Ben:

Well most of the photos that are in existence of Klosowski, specifically the one of him with wife Bessie Taylor, were taken in the very late 1890's (1898-1900), at which time Klosowski would have been 33-35 years of age.

Would you agree that he looks somewhat older than that? At a glance, if I did not know better, I would have said he was around 40 at least.

Appearances can be deceiving - especially in darker complexioned people with facial hair.

Clair:

Again, some vague memories of that docco are that they did identify some of the bodies but couldn't identify the remains of either Anastasia or a brother of hers.....but that was a while ago, so my memories might be wrong.

Unfortunate that they weren't able to extract any DNA, just in the unlikely scenario that anything further might be found.

I wonder what happened to the apron piece that was found in Goulston Street? That was saturated in blood at the time and would surely make a better test specimen if still in existence somewhere.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jeff Leahy]

No DNA connected to the Ripper crimes exist.

The only DNA that might be of any use is that of Mary Jane Kelly's.

and that only so we could possibly identify where she came from.

Finding her might not be so easy either the current grave is almost certainly in the wrong place.

Pirate

[Ben]

Hi Adam,

From pictorial evidence, I'd say Klosowski looked roughly his age. A heavy moustache on a relatively young man might have an ageing effect to a modern observer, but in 1888, such an appearance was undoubtedly very common.

Best regards,
Ben

[Adam Went]

I guess it depends on the perception of the particular individual. Elizabeth Long thought the man she saw was over 40, but admittedly, only saw him from behind. The bulk of witness testimony would place him around 30 years of age. Klosowski, as you said Ben, with a moustache in 1888, at the age of just 23, might have been made to look older though - judging the age of somebody is difficult, it's such a variable thing.

Cheers,
Adam.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Adam!

One problem with the face of JtR probably is, that he had an all-too-common-looking one!

All the best
Jukka

[Ben]

Klosowski, as you said Ben, with a moustache in 1888, at the age of just 23, might have been made to look older though

Quite possibly, Adam, although strictly speaking, we don't know that Klosowksi wore a moustache in 1888.

All the best,
Ben