Jacob The Ripper?

[Jimi]

Joseph the witness

Hi All
Hi Bridewell
You could possibly be right, you are entitled to your opinion.
In the article, Tracy and I never, ever said Jacob was Jack the ripper, we believe there is a strong possibility that Jacob was, but no way can we prove it. Yet.
n The article is to stimulate discussion and research into a man I believe has the best medical and psychological history, but there is more to be done.
You say about Joseph saying " i don't like it when characters...". Why the plural characters?
At this time Joseph did not know a dead body would be found yards away within the hour. All he knew was that his cousin, who he must have known had a mental disorder and a criminal record, looked to be cheating on his wife with a prostitute.
Later, well, how many people would believe that a member of their family could commit these crimes. He never saw Jacob/Jack commit any offence.
Would he want to check things out with Sarah first? Would he inform the police knowing that the anti-jewish sentiments were running at boiling point.
It was barely a year earlier that Lipski had been hung, at which time hundreds cheered when the black flag was raised signifying his death.
So, I don't think it was just a simple reticence that made Joseph demur and vacillitate.
Keep Well
Jimi

[DVV]

That seems an unlikely thing for a man to say if what he is looking at is his cousin (however dodgy his nature) talking to a prostitute.

Indeed, more than unlikely.

I would have thought it more likely that he saw the sort of ruffian

Exactly, a sort of ruffian talking to an old poor woman that might have evoked, be it in his subconscious, the previous murders. That's why I've always found the questions he was asked at the inquest ill-formulated.
Yes, objectively there was just a guy talking to a woman. But it was late, they looked poor and shabby, and the man was much younger than the lady.

[Errata]

I am not sure where you go this information from Eratta, people with syphilis could be in the latent stage for 20 - 30 years before hitting the tertiary stage.

Tracy

They can now, or to be more specific, they could in the 20's and 30's which is when the latency period was really studied. It's more like 15 to 20 years. But there were drugs available that tried to prolong latency. It didn't cure, and short relapses were pretty common, but it extended life. But even the victims of the Tuskegee experiment were given those treatments, though they tend to be pretty toxic. They just weren't given penicillin.

Another factor is that the disease became less virulent. In the early 20th century they noticed that new infections were becoming less severe. Now symptoms are barely noticeable. In fact, people don't necessarily die of it when left untreated. It's possible that Levy had the less virulent form, but given the rapidity of his decline after incarceration, it doesn't seem likely.

Lastly people in the East End had hard lives, shorter life expectancies. Diseases were harder on them, progressed faster. Not to mention that the treatments could easily be lethal. Stress, malnutrition, poor physical condition speed up syphilis.

As for where I got the information, I honestly don't remember. We were talking about this earlier in the thread like a year ago. I think it was either a public health chart from New York in 1880, or a math thing. Average age of death - average age of onset. I'll try to find it again.

[DVV]

If it was a joke, Abberline didn't get it!

He did get it, but too late - and decided afterwards Mrs Long was the only reliable witness.

[tji]

Hi Bridewell

The problem with Levy, as with most suspects, is that it is necessary to rely on conjecture to construct a case.

While we have been upfront in the article that we are putting Jacob forward as a good suspect for Jtr and not claiming to have solved the case, I think it is safe to say we have brought more than conjecture to the table.

Tracy

[Bridewell]

Perhaps

Hi Greg


Certainly not. But that doesn't affect Levy's candidacy. Quite the reverse, since the A-Man is nothing but a joke.

"I have interrogated him this evening, and I am of the opinion his statement is true". If it was a joke, Abberline didn't get it!

Getting back to Levy the suspect

The problem with Levy, as with most suspects, is that it is necessary to rely on conjecture to construct a case. Yes, the press thought that Levy (the witness) knew more than he was letting on (his "knowing air"). That might just mean that he didn't see anything and frustrated a journalist by saying as much.

He supposedly said (to Harris):

"I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about".

That seems an unlikely thing for a man to say if what he is looking at is his cousin (however dodgy his nature) talking to a prostitute. I would have thought it more likely that he saw the sort of ruffian (like that word!) who might relieve him of his wallet at knife-point if he got the opportunity. What risk is posed to Joseph Hyam Levy's "going home by myself" if all he has seen is a member of his own family?

I believe that Joseph Levy didn't recognise the individual he saw, but that he thought it likely he was a wrong'un. Another possibility is that it was the woman he didn't like the look of.

[DVV]

Hi Greg

I know A-Man doesn't fit Sailor Man but A-Man could fit Levy.

Certainly not. But that doesn't affect Levy's candidacy. Quite the reverse, since the A-Man is nothing but a joke.

[GregBaron]

Levy no sailor...

no, Lawende described sailor boy, he looks nothing like LEVY, it's Joseph Levy that's at odds.... he's the one that seems unreliable.

sailor boy was about 5ft 8'' blonde and medium/healthy, Levy is tiny, skinny, and finally dark and sallow, it's not just the height that's different is it.

if you go for LEVY then you need very strong arguement to say that GH was telling the truth, but judging by the way the other threads are right now, i wouldn't bother if i was you

it's not just that GH is right or wrong, because this is like a mountain to climb, Levy also doesn't look like Blotchy face either!

he is also too weedy to be the A.Chapman suspect too.

Hi Malcolm,

I know A-Man doesn't fit Sailor Man but A-Man could fit Levy. Another consideration, and I know Lawende is above reproach, but what if he was lying? What if, at the urging of his friend Joseph, who saw his cousin talking to Eddowes, he begged Lawende not to implicate Jacob due to fears of a Jewish massacre of East Enders. I know, far fetched but hey, it can't be ruled out. In response, Lawende comes up with a gentile sailor, very different from what he in fact saw. Hate to trash Lawende, but it's only an idea...

My opinion on the syphilis? It is only my opinion, it was one thing me and Jimi disagreed on and is complete conjecture which is why it wasn't added into the article.

I wonder if Jacob caught syphilis before meeting/marrying Sarah in 1879 (he was then 23) Whether he knew what he had we will never know. If he got past the secondary stage before meeting her, he would no longer be contagious meaning her and their children wouldn't contract syphilis.

He carried on with his life until the neuro-syphilis kicks in around 1886 - ( the onset of neurosyphilis to death normally occurs round 5 years taking us to 1891).

The article went into a lot more detail on syphilis but here is a list of some effects of neuro-syphilis -

The onset of psychiatric symptoms of general paresis can be insidious, first noticed by family and friends rather than the patient. These include loss of ambition at work, memory lapses, irritability, unusual giddiness, apathy, withdrawal, and a decline in attention to personal affairs. Later, patients may present with mental changes simulating schizophrenia, euphoric mania, paranoia, toxic psychosis, or presenile dementias. Presenile dementia is most common, manifesting with depression, confusion, and severe impairment of memory and judgement.

This could explain the inconsistencies of timing and how the rest of the family didn't seem to contract syphilis. The symptoms in his 1891 medical records show syphilis was present and his cause of death was general paresis of the insane - another name for syphilis.

Thanks Tracy. It seems pretty complicated, especially in trying to assess his state of mind in the Autumn of 1888. The schizophrenic like symptoms are very interesting...

No, #36 Middlesex Street was about a quarter of a mile northeast of Aldgate High Street (AHS), so would have been invisible from the Bull Inn. Butcher's Row was on the south side of AHS between the Minories and Mansell Street. The meat market on Middlesex Street (to which no. 36 would have been a part) was referred to colloquially as the Meat Market of Petticoat Lane from the literature I've read.

That said, it is uncertain as to which location Sagar was referring to when he described watching a man who (he was certain) was the Whitechapel killer -- although the location was more likely to have been the south side of AHS.

The front window (second floor was empty) of the Bull Inn would have looked directly across the street to Butcher's Row.

Thanks Scott. I wasn't necessarily referring to the Bull Inn in particular but only using that as an example. I was wondering if 36 Middlesex could be viewed out the back of anywhere on AHS? I think you've basically answered with a No. Maybe, as you suggested, Levy had some business on butcher's row or hung out over there for some reason?

I hope further research turns up more goods....


Greg

[tji]

Thanks Scott - I wasn't sure myself.

Tracy

[tji]

Hi Greg

My opinion on the syphilis? It is only my opinion, it was one thing me and Jimi disagreed on and is complete conjecture which is why it wasn't added into the article.

I wonder if Jacob caught syphilis before meeting/marrying Sarah in 1879 (he was then 23) Whether he knew what he had we will never know. If he got past the secondary stage before meeting her, he would no longer be contagious meaning her and their children wouldn't contract syphilis.

He carried on with his life until the neuro-syphilis kicks in around 1886 - ( the onset of neurosyphilis to death normally occurs round 5 years taking us to 1891).

The article went into a lot more detail on syphilis but here is a list of some effects of neuro-syphilis -

The onset of psychiatric symptoms of general paresis can be insidious, first noticed by family and friends rather than the patient. These include loss of ambition at work, memory lapses, irritability, unusual giddiness, apathy, withdrawal, and a decline in attention to personal affairs. Later, patients may present with mental changes simulating schizophrenia, euphoric mania, paranoia, toxic psychosis, or presenile dementias. Presenile dementia is most common, manifesting with depression, confusion, and severe impairment of memory and judgement.

This could explain the inconsistencies of timing and how the rest of the family didn't seem to contract syphilis. The symptoms in his 1891 medical records show syphilis was present and his cause of death was general paresis of the insane - another name for syphilis.

Tracy

[Malcolm X]

This seems true Malcolm if indeed Hutch saw such a character. But recall that Lawende also said 5'6" or 5'7" while Joseph Levy said 3 inches higher than the 5 foot Eddowes.

With hats and the clothes they wore and poor lighting I think an error of 3 or 4 inches can be made. I also thought since Levy was a thief, perhaps he stole all the fancy pins and watches etc. found on Astro-Man for an exciting night out with MJK.

Pale with a dark mustache could definitely be the syphilitic Jacob....


Greg

no, Lawende described sailor boy, he looks nothing like LEVY, it's Joseph Levy that's at odds.... he's the one that seems unreliable.

sailor boy was about 5ft 8'' blonde and medium/healthy, Levy is tiny, skinny, and finally dark and sallow, it's not just the height that's different is it.

if you go for LEVY then you need very strong arguement to say that GH was telling the truth, but judging by the way the other threads are right now, i wouldn't bother if i was you

it's not just that GH is right or wrong, because this is like a mountain to climb, Levy also doesn't look like Blotchy face either!

he is also too weedy to be the A.Chapman suspect too.

[tji]

We don't know for sure. Average progression of Syphilis would put his initial lesions (lesions the size of a dime on his penis, so not really subtle) in 1885.

While this is in one way correct I have to point out that in my research into syphilis, I found differing results also. The initial lesions (chancre) can actually be missed by the patient as it can be painless and also in hard to see places, under the foreskin, in the mouth or anus. (Initial point of contact) So it wan't uncommon for patients not to even be aware they had been infected.

Evidently there was no mention of it during his 1886 incarceration, which is unusual, but he was clearly dying of it by his admission to the asylum in 1890

.

While this is correct, but we do only have his intake records for 1886 not his medical records, it is highly likely they were destroyed in a fire.

The average progression from exposure to death was about six years,

I am not sure where you go this information from Eratta, people with syphilis could be in the latent stage for 20 - 30 years before hitting the tertiary stage.

Tracy

[Scott Nelson]

What I'm wondering is, is it conceivable that from a backroom on the Bull Inn side of Butcher's row, that a stakeout team could watch the back-end of 36 Middlesex Street

No, #36 Middlesex Street was about a quarter of a mile northeast of Aldgate High Street (AHS), so would have been invisible from the Bull Inn. Butcher's Row was on the south side of AHS between the Minories and Mansell Street. The meat market on Middlesex Street (to which no. 36 would have been a part) was referred to colloquially as the Meat Market of Petticoat Lane from the literature I've read.

That said, it is uncertain as to which location Sagar was referring to when he described watching a man who (he was certain) was the Whitechapel killer -- although the location was more likely to have been the south side of AHS.

The front window (second floor was empty) of the Bull Inn would have looked directly across the street to Butcher's Row.

[Errata]

Thanks Errata. Do you think the records indicate he was schizophrenic or suffering from madness brought on by the syphilis?


Greg

Well, his 1886 intake doesn't at all suggest schizophrenia. Mania perhaps. There are a couple of options.

First, that he was not syphilitic in 1886. Syphilis was a known quantity, where insanity was not. Had he been symptomatic when he went in 1886, they would have kept him, assuming his problems stemmed from neurosyphilis. Had he not been symptomatic, but he had told them he had syphilis they would have made the same assumption.

The problem with this is that he was in for a year. So that doesn't get him infected until 1887 or 1888. Which works for a motive, but not disease progression. There no way he wastes away to uncontrollable insanity in two or three years. I mean, it can happen but it doesn't.

Second option is that he was syphilitic, but managed to keep it a secret from the hospital. It would fit the timing, and it would explain why they released him. It would however mean that he had a mental illness and syphilis at the same time, which kind of makes you wonder why he wasn't institutionalized more. But his 1886 illness could not have been related to syphilis. Neurosyphilis is an end stage thing, and people don't live more than 2 years with it. If it had been neurosyohilis he wouldn't have lived to commit the murders.

Third option is that he never had syphilis, that he had a mental illness. If he had been misdiagnosed, they would have treated him with mercury. Assuming he got the standard dosage he would have been dead of mercury poisoning in a year and a half. Which actually happens to be how long he lived in the hospital after his diagnosis of tertiary syphilis. But he would only have lived about that long without mercury if he had syphilis. So then what are the odds he didn't actually have syphilis? Well, the telling bit would be the birth dates of his children. If there isn't a long interruption between kids, then his wife didn't have it, and one child was born in this time frame, maybe more. But I can't imagine how a doctor would screw that up, unless he was lied to during the case history.

Anyway syphilitic madness is an end stage thing. Coming in before insanity are balance problems, loss of sensation, numbness, loss of equilibrium, shakes... There is almost no chance that someone with neurosyphilis can wield a knife. So if JtR was killing people over syphilis, he was doing it well before it affected his brain.

[lynn cates]

heh-heh

Hello David. Don't know--but I daresay you are itching for an answer.

Cheers.
LC