Jacob The Ripper?

[protohistorian]

No worries Jimi. I just want scholars who are going to play the syphilis card to be aware what they are proposing. We all benefit from better educated scholars, as it makes their works funner to read. Dave

[Roy Corduroy]

Well, unless he had the fastest progression of syphilis ever known, bending the laws of medicine and physics, what is more applicable is that he contracted syphilis from prostitutes, it made him angry, he stayed angry for about 1 to 10 years, and just when his body was weakening and failing him, he kills them. Which is a really long simmer for a rage killing. Not impossible, but not terribly likely.

Good evening Errata,

I disagree and find that revenge combined with mental instability could certainly be at play here, and he could have been Jack the Ripper. In fact, he would be the poster boy for this scenario.

At this remove, we are not capable of reverse-engineering his particular stages and so forth with any degree of certainty. We know he was syphilitic, most probably contracting the disease from sexual contact with a prostitute. But there is no evidence his illness caused him to be physically incapacitated during the autumn of 1888, not able to stalk prostitutes and use a knife on them. And he knew knives, being a butcher.

In summer 1890 he was commited insane. That is a year and a half after the murders.

I just want scholars who are going to play the syphilis card to be aware what they are proposing.

Dave, that hand was dealt right from the start by the people then. And it continues to be in play today by understanding the historical background. We have numerous stories of men at that time who were angry at prostitutes for that very reason. He could certainly be one of them. It was a common theme, that the perpetrator "felt he was wronged" by the ladies of the night. These observations made by people there at the time who had a good grasp of the situation.

Roy

[protohistorian]

Roy said,"Dave, that hand was dealt right from the start by the people then. And it continues to be in play today by understanding the historical background. We have numerous stories of men at that time who were angry at prostitutes for that very reason. He could certainly be one of them. It was a common theme, that the perpetrator "felt he was wronged" by the ladies of the night. These observations made by people there at the time who had a good grasp of the situation."

The Victorian grasp of syphilis was far from solid. They treated it with things like injections of mercury up the urethra. Subsequent proponents of this line of thinking, including yourself, fail to understand that by the time psychosis would manifest, other neurological problems would preclude the person from being the ripper. This idea of a ripper that is suffering syphilitic psychosis is dead by virtue of what we now know of the disease. Errata has made this point before. It is an ex issue. Dave

[Roy Corduroy]

The Victorian grasp of syphilis was far from solid.

Medically yes, but they knew that it made men angry to get it.

Subsequent proponents of this line of thinking, including yourself,

I am subsequent to the observations made at the time. I didn't invent this line of thinking.

fail to understand that by the time psychosis would manifest, other neurological problems would preclude the person from being the ripper.

I didn't say a word about psychosis brought on by syphilis. You are answering words that you put in my mouth. I'm talking about simple human nature. Anger. Taking revenge based on anger over a physical ailment which is painful and leaves a mental scar as well as a social stigma.

Syphilis does bring on psychosis. That can add to the mental instability of a person. But rage or anger over the physical condition is a strong precipitating factor towards violence. Could there be some of both in a person's motivations? Who can say.

Yes I like Errata's postings. There are a lot of things to consider. But can you tell me what year Jacob Levy contracted syphilis? Can you diagram his stages accurately? Can you therefore assert that he was physically or mentally incapacitated in the autumn of 1888, and not able to go out and use a knife on the defenseless unfortunates of Whitechapel? Hardly. You can't prove any of what Errata said. Just as I can't prove Jacob Levy killed anyone.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

This idea of a ripper that is suffering syphilitic psychosis is dead by virtue of what we now know of the disease. Errata has made this point before. It is an ex issue. Dave

That's not my idea. I didn't say that. You said that. You misquoted me and put words in my mouth and answered them. You had a conversation with someone you made up in your mind saying those things. Not me.

Roy

[protohistorian]

O.K. Roy, because I like you buddy.
Your assumption is that in the fall of 1888 he had syphilis and knew it. Confirmed diagnosis is 1890.
1. primary stage is between 10-19 days so no 1888 for you.
2. secondary stage between 1 and 6 months so no 1888 for you
3. latent stage could be except latent stage is asymptomatic so no anger for you
4. tertiary stage between 1 and 10 years to manifest. Is also the stage of psychosis so no anger alone for you.

Is that dead enough for you buddy? Dave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis

[Roy Corduroy]

Your assumption is that in the fall of 1888 he had syphilis and knew it.

Yes

Roy

[Errata]

I have no problem with idea that he killed because he was mentally unstable. The reason I brought up the timeline is because It is inconsistant with the idea of him killing because of syphilitic psychosis. The usual amount of time from contraction to later stages of neurosyphilis is 6 years. With his death in 1891, that means the likliest time of contraction and first lesions is 1885. Which can complicate a revenge motive. Could he have contracted syphillis and died of it in three years? Yes. It's not completely unheard of. But if he was insane, he was that way before the syphilis. He didn't kill them out of syphilitic psychosis, and revenge is complicated although not ruled out by the timeline. It doesn't mean he didn't kill them, it doesn't mean he might not have a "good reason" to kill them. All it means is that syphilis causing him to kill is out, and syphilis being the trigger for him to kill is more complicated than some have intimated. And it is only complicated because such a quick progression through the disease to death is pretty rare. Ironically, if people did have such a rapid decline, the disease might have been less virulent.

[Jimi]

Hi All
I think we all agree Syphillis killed Jacob. Personally i don`t believe it made Jacob a killer,but are there any pointers to Jacob having a mental disease?
There is a family history of mental problems, in the main Jacobs brother commiting suicide in 1875 at the young age of 21, and we do have the report of Jacob "who was a good business man" suddenly becoming a thief. Does this not show a significant character change(1886)?
Why, on his conviction, is he sent to an asylum and not to prison?
Roy states his belief that revenge could play a part,but what of Anger? Two emotions that are not dissimilar, in this case anger at a mother figure.Is it just coincidence that Jacobs mother died in July 1888? Could a man already ill and suffering a genetic mental abberation suddenly turn psychotic at this stressor, as Errata pointed out the jewish society is very matriachal.
I believe there is a chance all the victims were killed because they were mother figures, as prostitutes they were easy targets for jacobs repressed anger,but not because they were prostitutes.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Errata and Jimi,

Thank you for the reply Errata,

Please note my initial post said contracting syphilis made him angry at prostitutes. I never said a word about psychosis brought on by it. You entered that into the conversation. Don't attribute that to me please, it wasn't my idea.

You also asserted that based on your diagnosis, he was physically and/or mentally incapable of commiting the murders in the fall of 1888. I can't agree with that with any degree of certainty.

I said revenge. Plain and simple. Someone doesn't have to go out and seek revenge when the first lesions appear. Rage can simmer. Haven't you been mad at other drivers on the road? Maybe for years. Finally one day you explode in a rage. That's usually how it happens. Most people arrested for road rage are not 16 years old and just got their drivers license.

Jimi, as you said, he was mentally ill. If he was Jack the Ripper he may have killed for that reason. And other stressors, as you mentioned. Syphilis could have nothing to do with it.

But if a mentally ill butcher who lives in the district, is roughly the right age and fits a couple of the witness descriptions and - is syphilitic - then I will automatically profile him as a mentally unbalanced syphilitic revenge killer, because it is the most direct, easy to understand scenario, firmly based on historical study. And it requires no psychobabble.

We sit here in our modern era, in our better medical knowledge and go back and try to explain what people were thinking when we don't know that. They knew there was no cure for the syph. Imagine if you had a disease which was painful, had a social stigma, and, there was no cure for it. You're gonna die someday from it. What would you do? Would your behavior be predictable?

Roy

[Errata]

.

We sit here in our modern era, in our better medical knowledge and go back and try to explain what people were thinking when we don't know that. They knew there was no cure for the syph. Imagine if today you had a disease which was painful, had a social stigma, and, there was no cure for it. You're gonna die someday from it. What would you do? Would your behavior be predictable?

Roy

You mean like AIDS?

Our better medical knowledge does show us that people tend to deal with things in a predictable way. Thus we have the famous "Stages of Grief" (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance). Which not surprisingly also applies to people who contract fatal or debilitating illnesses. All of the people I have known who have lived with and died of AIDS have gone through it, each stage with varying degrees of grace and success. None of them went on a killing spree, but they were all also fairly well adjusted humans.

Is Levy a "mentally unbalanced syphilitic revenge killer"? Maybe.

We don't know how he contracted syphilis. He may well have gotten it from prostitutes. He could have gotten it from his wife, his mistress, his neighbor, his brother in law. We don't know why he stole from his employer. Maybe his family was starving, maybe it wasn't kosher and he was preventing his employer from selling unclean meat, maybe he was selling it, maybe he was going to make a coat out of it. Maybe they sent him to an asylum because they felt bad for him having to steal for his family. Maybe it was to protect him because he was jewish. Maybe he was barking mad. Maybe he was a homosexual.

So if you assume he was unbalanced, and assume he got syphilis from prostitutes, and assume he reacted with rage instead of guilt or any other emotion, and assume that he had it in him to kill and perform mutilations, and assume that he has no alibi for any of the killings, then yes. But that's not really simple in the end.

Personally, I don't want to assume anything about him. I will assume things about syphilis, because in this case, syphilis is the known quantity. I have made some assumptions about his likely condition, but they are all assumptions, and all based on the average disease progression.

I don't think you are wrong. I don't think you proposed syphilitic psychosis, anthing like that. All I am saying is that we know exactly six things about this guy. He died of syphilis, he was Jewish, he was a butcher, he had a record, he was the same height as a man seen talking to Eddowes, and at least once was in an asylum. Clearly any discussion is going to have a lot of assumptions.

I know about being Jewish and Jewish history because I am Jewish. I know about syphilis and its history because my dad is an OB/GYN and because I used to teach sex ed (back when they let kids learn it). I got nothing on the rest of it. All I have to go on with this suspect is what I can assume from him being Jewish, and what I can assume from him being syphilitic. From those two things, it seems unlikely to me, but not impossible. Any statement I may have made regarding Levy that was construed as factual, I apologize for. It was not intended to be. If for know other reason than we know more about santa clause than we do this guy.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Errata,

First you said

All it means is that syphilis causing him to kill is out, and syphilis being the trigger for him to kill is more complicated than some have intimated. And it is only complicated because such a quick progression through the disease to death is pretty rare. Ironically, if people did have such a rapid decline, the disease might have been less virulent.

such a quick progression through the disease to death is pretty rare.

Then you said

I will assume things about syphilis, because in this case, syphilis is the known quantity. I have made some assumptions about his likely condition, but they are all assumptions, and all based on the average disease progression.

assumptions, and all based on the average disease progression.

Is his case rare? Or average? You said both.

"Take two diagnosis and call me in the morning."

Roy

[Errata]

Is his case rare? Or average? You said both.

"Take two diagnosis and call me in the morning."

Roy

Actually you misunderstood. Or I was unclear.

Within 3 years of the murders, Levy was dead of advanced neurosyphilis. If he became enraged upon diagnosis and started killing for revenge, That would make his disease progression very very fast. First lesions to death in 3 years is rare.

Because the average progression is six years, I find it less likely that syphilis would be a trigger for him, because that would mean he was likely diagnosed 3 years before the murders.

Therefore, if he went from diagnosis to death in three years, that is outside the average disease progression. Thus rare. If he was within the average disease progression, that means 6 years from diagnosis to death, which puts his diagnosis likely in 1885, three years before the murders. Thus making it less likely that syphilis was a trigger. So he is rare if he died after three years, average if he died after six.

[Roy Corduroy]

Therefore, if he went from diagnosis to death in three years, that is outside the average disease progression. Thus rare.

I understand.

If he was within the average disease progression, that means 6 years from diagnosis to death, which puts his diagnosis likely in 1885, three years before the murders. Thus making it less likely that syphilis was a trigger.

Thus making it less likely that syphilis was a trigger.

I disagree that the trigger is more likely when he first sees the lesions, then a "window" closes and he takes no action after that. Instead, I think it just as likely his rage could build over three years.

Roy

[curious]

Is it just coincidence that Jacobs mother died in July 1888? Could a man already ill and suffering a genetic mental abberation suddenly turn psychotic at this stressor, as Errata pointed out the jewish society is very matriachal.

Jimi

I am under the impression that Jacob's father was Jewish, but that his mother was not.

Is that wrong?

How would that change things?

curious