Jacob The Ripper?

[tji]

Hi Scott

I said before that Jacob was too fat to be the Ripper.


Yeah, you have, I did ask you about this the last time you mentioned it, but you haven't answered.

So again, can I ask why you think he was too fat when we know he weighed 9st 3 when he was at Stone?


Also, the only reason Mark King focused his research on Jacob is because Jacob was the cousin of King's favored witness, Joseph Hyam Levy.

May I ask how you know this, because I am never read in Mark King's works that he had made this connection, he states they may be related, because they are both Levy's but he doesn't link them.

I would be very grateful, if there is some work of Mark King's out there that I haven't read, you could point me to it. I would love to know the history of Abraham Levy and Mark seems to know this.

Tj

[curious]

Hi all

If we look at Joseph Levy (Jacob's father) and Caroline Solomons we know that Joseph was living with his mother and brother and sisters in the 1841 census at 38 Petticoat Lane St Botolph.

He marries Caroline Solomons on 3 September 1848.

They have Hannah Levy born before the marriage in 1847.
They have Elizabeth Levy born in 1848.
They have Isaac Levy born in 1851.
They have Abraham levy born in 1854.
They have Jacob Levy born in 1856 and
they have Moses Levy born in 1859.
Rebecca Levy born in 1867.

Joseph and Caroline are listed as living at 4 Little Middlesex Street in 1851 but then move to 111 Middlesex street in 1861 - 1871 census. In 1881 they are living at 7 Globe Road.

Caroline Solomons, for me has been the worst to research as I can't seem to find a lot about her. What we do know is -:

Caroline was born in 1819 Aldgate London.

Her Father was called Abraham Solomons, haven't found her mother yet.
She already has 2 children when she meets Joseph, Rebecca Solomons born 1837 and Jane Solomons born 1841. Now the fact that they are called Solomons means either she wasn't married to the father or she married another Solomons.

Tj

Hi,

Very interesting work.

I, too, find Jacob Levy very intriguing.

Most likely you have already considered this, but since you don't mention it, I'm throwing the thought out . . .

Is it possible that you're having difficulty with Caroline because she was not born Solomons, but that Solomons was a former married name?

You mention the possibility that she was a Solomons who married a Solomons, but . . .

The bottom line question is: how are you positive that Jacob Levy's mother Caroline was Abraham Solomons' daughter?

Since I don't know why you're sure her father was Abraham, I am wondering if perhaps there were two Caroline Solomons.

Abraham's daughter and another Caroline lastname unknown, who married a Solomons, who died, then Caroline married Joseph Levy.

Just wondering.

Curious

[Phil H]

I find Jacob Levy quite interesting. He's not a suspect I've come across before, so will need to read and ponder much more.

However, he seems to me to fit man of the criteria that made Kosminski a suspect and is the sort of man I've long had in mind as the Whitechapel killer. We know that the police (at least Swanson, Anderson and Macnaghten) had details of Kosminski confused and Martin Fido long ago hypothesised that ther may have been a mix up of suspects.

So, compared to some of the flights of fancy I see on Casebook, I would not regard it as too outrageous to suggest that Levy might have been the man. It doesn't mean I think he WAS, just that i think more work on him might be valuable.

Like an earlier poster, Joseph Levy's hesitation in regard to saying anything about what he saw of Eddowes and the man, has long intrigued me. At one time it seemed he might have a link to another suspect (I forget whom, but I believe the connection was dismissed eventually) but here we have another link. I did then toy with the idea that Joseph Levy might have been Anderson/Swanson's witness, but I would bow to others with greater knowledge if that is impossible.

A fascinating thread which I shall now re-read with much closer attention to detail.

Phil

[curious]

Hi Tom

yes we have read the dissertations by Scott Nelson and Mark King on here, they are very good.

Tj

Hello,
I've looked through the dissertations and been unable to locate these two. Do you recall the names, or something that would help me find them?

Thanks,
curious

[Jimi]

dissertations

Hi All
Hi Curious
Glad to read of your interest.
To find Mark Kings dissertation on Jacob Levy from the suspects on the home page scroll down until you find the suspects photo and left click on it.
Hope this helps.
Keep Well
Jimi

[tji]

Hi Curious


Is it possible that you're having difficulty with Caroline because she was not born Solomons, but that Solomons was a former married name?

We have given this some thought, unfortunately we have to go with the info provided.

At one point we did wonder if Abraham was her husband not her father but the records seem to point to him being her father.

You are correct there are other Caroline Solomons born within that time, we have one Caroline Solomons born 1819 father Abraham Solomons she marries a Henry Fielding in 1842, I believe off the top of my head.

I have found marriage info that does state that Catherine/Caroline Solomons marries Joseph Levy 3 Sep 1848. Her father is listed as Abraham Solomons. (His is listed as Isaac Levy)

I have tried various angles to find her in the 1841 census, with no luck so far.

I have even tried searching for them through first names with no such luck. (We can assume Jane wasn't born as she was born in 1841, however I have searched for them all as well as only Caroline and Rebecca.)

So the puzzle is if we take Abraham to be her father, and she did marry the father of her children, what happened?

If he died why did she take her maiden name back, I suppose while this could be a possibility, why would she?
The only reason I can think is if she married out of faith, but then would she be allowed back into the faith to marry Joseph?

If she divorced him, surely there would be some record of this, and would the children still have his name?

The only other logical reasoning is that she didn't marry the children's father, (maybe seperate fathers if they took her name). What I am not sure about is the Jewish belief on unwed mothers. She can't have been completely castigated if she wed into the Levy family 7 years later, where Rebecca and Jane eventually take the Levy name as their own.

So while you ask how confident am I, I can't answer 100% with the info I have available, however I think it is reasonable to assume that Abraham was her father.

I have to say that I only have limited access to websites via the internet, people who have better research access may find the info straight away.

Tj

[tji]

Hi all

Just some interesting notes I have discovered while updating my notes :-

If it was our Jacob Levy that was arrested for sexual assault at the age of 16, then he would have been 16 in 1871. In 1871 Sarah Levy his grandmother he had lived next door to all his life died. Another stressor?

Another fact is the Goulston Street graffitti was written on the wall of Wentworth Bulidings....Jacob's brother Isaac Levy lived in Wentworth buildings until his death in 1891.


Tj

[Kaspar]

Finally Nat Geo in Denmark showed the Mystery Files: Jack the Ripper documentary yesterday evening , where profiler Pat Brown singles out Jacob Levy as her prime suspect. As far as I could see there where no obvious mistakes in the programme, but a bit controversially she says that Mary Kelly was murdered by someone else. I found that a lot of her reasoning and arguments where good and the facts where not shaped to fit the suspect.
I found that the argument for Mary Kelly not being a Ripper victim was quite good, C1-4 where victims because of opportunity and where done in a hurry, while Mary Kelly was more planned and Brown believed that Kelly knew her killer - perhaps Hutchinson. The argument for Levy to have stopped after Eddows was down to two things; Joseph Hyam Levy spotted him and the syphilis had taken too much of a toll on him.

Don Rumbelow also makes and appearance and to my surprise makes two statements that I had not heard him make in earlier documentaries; 1) He believes that the Goulston Street Grafiti was made by Jack the Ripper, 2) He always thought that the Ripper had a background as a butcher.

Even though it is only half and hour long it is still a good rundown that does not linger on about the Royal Conspiracy theory and flatly states that the letters where all hoaxes.

The documentary reaffirmed my belief that Levy was indeed Jack the Ripper, I have however always found George Hutchinson a compelling suspect and the theory put forward in this documentary makes everything fit.

Highly recommendable

[Jimi]

Not Kelly but still 5?

Hi Kaspar
Yes, it is a good programme and there were no glaring mistakes that we could see, obviously they did not know about Jacob and Joseph being cousins, and with that,there is something i couldn`t get my head around.
How could Joseph recognise Jacob AFTER Eddowes murder and still allow Jacob free rein to murder Kelly?
Well, if JTR didn`t kill Kelly and Jacob was JTR it fits.
I must admit that the sheer ferocity of kelly`s murder makes me lean towards her being an escalation victim rather than a stand alone victim, but i could be swayed.
There is the possibility however of there still being 5 victims. Martha Tabram.
If we believe the report in the Illustrated Police News-: "She being throttled while being held down" and Swansons report (September 1888) that there were nine stab wounds to the throat. (Jack the Ripper,an encyclopedia-John J. Eddleston).
Up to now we haven`t been able to substantiate either of these statements but we`re still working on it.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Abby Normal]

Hi Radical Joe

Yes I know -we can't believe how little Jacob Levy is mentioned as a suspect. Let's sum up what we have so far :-

Suspect looked like a Jew. Jacob was a Jew.

He was the correct height according to witness statments. (Joseph Lawende and Joseph Levy.) He was 5ft 3in and 9stone 3 when admitted to stone asylum in 1890.

He was the right age. Witness reports between 30 - 35, he was 32.

He needed to know the area. He had lived in the area all his life with family living near some of the murder sights.

Was Jtr insane. It looks like there was a genetic illness in the family. Maternal uncle died insane and his brother hanged himself while of unsound mind.

According to the Evening News in Oct 1888 They state that Joseph Levy "is absolutely obstinate and refuses to the slightest information and he leaves one to infer that he knows something." Jacob Levy was family.

There is a Jacob Levy on the Old Bailey arrested for sexual assault. Priors

Jack had to have been able to move freely at night. Sarah, Jacob's wife complained that Jacob was restless at night pacing the floor before walking the streets aimlessly at night.

The killer needed some skills with a knife. Jacob was a butcher, in fact he grew up in a family of butchers.

Jacob's mother died in June of 1888. The murders started a few weeks later.

Jack had a hatred of women or the very least prostitutes - Jacob died of syphllis.

Lady Anderson states that Jtr was sent to an asylum near Stone. Jacob was sent to Stone asylum.

Conjecture.

Jack was sent to his brothers home before being sent to the asylum. The local police were watching him. Could they have meant brother -in - law.
Isaac Barnett married an Elizabeth Levy. Jacob had a sister called Elizabeth. He was the only one who visited Jacob at the asylum. If it is the same person that would make him Jacobs brother in law.

What if Caroline Jacob's mother did have his step sisters out of wedlock before meeting Joseph. We also know that Hannah Levy was born a in 1847 and yet Joseph and Caroline didn't marry until sep 1848. Was there a stigma that Jacob found hard to cope with.

For those who don't think that Elizabeth Stride was a Jtr killer, could the fact that Catherine Eddowes had been so savagely mutilated be because she had let him know she suspected him and tried to blackmail him, so he flew into a rage.

Tj

Hi
Jacob Levy sounds like a very intriguing charactor. Is there somewhere I can read more about him? is there more on him in the dissertation section here, etc?

[tji]

Hi Abbey

I am not sure about a dissertation, but if you go to the suspects heading att he top left of the screen and go to Jacob Levy there are a few articles on him by the likes of Mark King and Christopher Morley.

Hope you find them a good read.


Tj

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abbey

I am not sure about a dissertation, but if you go to the suspects heading att he top left of the screen and go to Jacob Levy there are a few articles on him by the likes of Mark King and Christopher Morley.

Hope you find them a good read.


Tj

Thanks TJ
just read the description on him in the suspects section. Was he ever a suspect, or at least a person of interest, at the time?

[tji]

Hi Abby

As far as any actual evidence to point to Jacob then no - if he was a suspect at the time there is no actual written evidence to support this unfortunately.

I would probably think he would have been interviewed at some point - the Police at the time would have had an idea that he would have fit some points of what they where looking for in a suspect.

I don't know if he is a 'new suspect' Mark King wrote about him early nineties, I am not sure if he was mentioned before then, sorry.

Tj

[Diddles]

Finally Nat Geo in Denmark showed the Mystery Files: Jack the Ripper documentary yesterday evening , where profiler Pat Brown singles out Jacob Levy as her prime suspect.

I saw a bit of this docu on youtube, and found the theory on Eddowes' face damage interesting. Anyone know where I can find the whole documentary? Levy is a good suspect, if one suscribe to the 'insane, local jew theory'.

[Scott Nelson]

Was he a suspect at the time --NO!

I've said repeatedly that the only reason Jacob Levy was considered a suspect at all is because Mark King found a connection between Jacob and his cousin, Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher and witness in the Eddowes murder. And Mr. King had an interest in considering Joseph Levy as possibly being Anderson's witness. Aside from this relationship, there's nothing to implicate Jacob Levy in any of the Whitechapel Murders. Jacob Levy could be looked upon as one of many local men with a history of violence and/or bouts with insanity, none of whom was necessarily the Ripper.