Jacob The Ripper?

[tji]

Hi Jimi

Although we agree on most things with Jtr, I tend to disagree on the apron. I personally don't feel it was dropped intentionally as a misdirection or to emphasise the GSG. I believe he was either cleaning himself up, heard a noise, hid in the doorway, rrealised he had incriminating evidence on him and dropped it, or evenjust flung it away as he walked past. I don't believe it had any significance to him other than to clean his hands.


Going back to Chris's comments, looking up on the reports by the top officials all I can say is that they don't really seem to have the same person in mind at all!!

I have found one website that seems quite knowledgeable on Jack the Ripper. He believes that it was Jacob Levy who was Jack, he has all the details we have found and more, however he states that it was for religious reasons that he killed.

One thing to notice however is that he states that in answer to Sagar's report of the killer being at Butcher's Row,
"This is very likely to refer to Jacob Levy who worked there as a butcher. Levy was living with friends when committed."


I have spent the last week trying to follow up on my abysmal record keeping. I have noted an Abigail Solomons who lived/owned 14 - 15 Aldgate High Street, (haven't noted the year ) in my early notes. Yet when you look on the maps we have upto 13 Aldgate High Street, then what seems to be a small road, the maps then continues from 19 Aldagte High Street. What happened to the numbers in between?

These buildings by the way are directly opposite Butchers Row.

Tj

Ps Thanks Roy for the link to historical directories, however it is not letting me connect to it.

[Jimi]

Jacob the ripper

Hi All
Roy, Chris thanks for that.
Facts about Jacob Levy are few, so how about a bit of discussion about one of the most controversial facts in Ripper history.
On the night of Catherine Eddowes murder a piece of Eddowes apron was discovered in Goulston St. It was identified definitely as from Eddowes apron.
Above it was the GSG.
One of the primary questions about the apron is Why?
Why did JTR take a piece of apron about the size of a pillow case,i believe and dump it there. Was it to carry body parts? Was it to clean his blood splattered hand? Or
On the night of Eddowes murder i believe, Jacob levy as JTR knew or suspected he had been recognised by his cousin,Joseph Levy. He sliced a piece of apron and purposely went PAST his home address to discard the apron in Goulston St. He then doubled back and returned into Middlesex St.and home. It was just by chance that the GSG was close by.
Just in my opinion,is all
Keep Well
Jimi

[Roy Corduroy]

Oops, my mistake. Thank you for correcting me, Chris. So without further clarification of his status, and assuming he was a public patient, Jacob Levy can be ruled out as the man Sagar had under survelliance when he wrote:

"We had good reason to suspect a man who worked in Butcher's Row, Aldgate. We watched him carefully. There was no doubt that this man was insane, and after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum. After he was removed there were no more Ripper atrocities."

As Sagar's man, Aaron Kosminski is ruled out in triplicate. Because he also did not go to a private asylum, was nowhere near Butchers' Row, and in fact, was not a butcher.

My apologies for the diversion, Jimi & tji, you have a good line of inqury going here, based on the original work by Mark King. As to your question about addresses, you can access HistoricalDirectories.com. But it only has 1882 and 1895. That will give you an idea of the numbering scheme, but to be precise I suppose you would need the 88' one, which it doesn't have.

Carry on then,

Roy

[Chris]

Jacob Levy does has two things going for him, however, as far as being Sagar's man. One, he was commited to a private asylum and two, Levy, a butcher, lived/worked at least in close proximity to Butchers' Row, Aldgate.

I'm not at all sure about the first. Stone wasn't a private asylum, but - if I understand correctly - the equivalent of a county lunatic asylum for the City of London.

Even so, Levy may have been a private patient there. Perhaps someone who has seen his records can clarify this?

[Roy Corduroy]

The problem with trying to make the Swanson marginalia fit Levy is that they specify that the suspect was Kosminski (and also that he was sent to Colney Hatch, not Stone).

Hi Chris, in this regard, Levy has two strikes against that fit, as you pointed out.

You mentioned Butchers' Row earlier in the same connection. But Robert Sagar didn't say anything about his suspect lodging with his brother - he said only that he worked in (or was employed at) Butchers' Row.

Likewise, in this regard, since Aaron Kosminski wasn't at Butchers' Row and not commited to a 'private asylum' he has two strikes against him for being Sagar's man. Using these criteria, the Sagar survelliance, and Swanson's 'watched by police night and day' comment are not referring to the same man.

Jacob Levy does has two things going for him, however, as far as being Sagar's man. One, he was commited to a private asylum and two, Levy, a butcher, lived/worked at least in close proximity to Butchers' Row, Aldgate.

Roy

[Chris]

I don`t think i recall Robert Sagars comment,would this be a dissertation?

The comments said to have been taken from Robert Sagar's memoirs (which unfortunately have never been traced) are quoted at the beginning of Scott Nelson's dissertation on Butchers' Row:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-butchersrow.html

There is a similar statement in an obituary that appeared in the Brighton and Hove Herald of 6 December 1924:
"It was Mr Sagar's view that the murders were committed by an insane man employed at Butcher's Row, Aldgate, who was subsequently placed by his friends in a private asylum."

[Jimi]

Jacob The Ripper

Hi All
Hi Chris
Yes, and i must apologise, i am possibly guilty of trying to make the suspect fit the facts. This came about after reading the Butchers Row, Aldgate thread. Thinking sort of went (brother?-brother-in-law?). At that time we knew isaac Barnett lived in Middlesex St. But until Septic Blue very kindly downloaded a readable map of the area, we didn`t actually know how far they were apart. And as you say kosminski is stated as the person being watched. It was just a thought,posted too early.
I don`t think i recall Robert Sagars comment,would this be a dissertation?
Keep well
jimi

[Chris]

Conjecture.

Jack was sent to his brothers home before being sent to the asylum. The local police were watching him. Could they have meant brother -in - law.
Isaac Barnett married an Elizabeth Levy. Jacob had a sister called Elizabeth. He was the only one who visited Jacob at the asylum. If it is the same person that would make him Jacobs brother in law.

The problem with trying to make the Swanson marginalia fit Levy is that they specify that the suspect was Kosminski (and also that he was sent to Colney Hatch, not Stone).

You mentioned Butchers' Row earlier in the same connection. But Robert Sagar didn't say anything about his suspect lodging with his brother - he said only that he worked in (or was employed at) Butchers' Row.

[tji]

Hi Radical Joe

Yes I know -we can't believe how little Jacob Levy is mentioned as a suspect. Let's sum up what we have so far :-

Suspect looked like a Jew. Jacob was a Jew.

He was the correct height according to witness statments. (Joseph Lawende and Joseph Levy.) He was 5ft 3in and 9stone 3 when admitted to stone asylum in 1890.

He was the right age. Witness reports between 30 - 35, he was 32.

He needed to know the area. He had lived in the area all his life with family living near some of the murder sights.

Was Jtr insane. It looks like there was a genetic illness in the family. Maternal uncle died insane and his brother hanged himself while of unsound mind.

According to the Evening News in Oct 1888 They state that Joseph Levy "is absolutely obstinate and refuses to the slightest information and he leaves one to infer that he knows something." Jacob Levy was family.

There is a Jacob Levy on the Old Bailey arrested for sexual assault. Priors

Jack had to have been able to move freely at night. Sarah, Jacob's wife complained that Jacob was restless at night pacing the floor before walking the streets aimlessly at night.

The killer needed some skills with a knife. Jacob was a butcher, in fact he grew up in a family of butchers.

Jacob's mother died in June of 1888. The murders started a few weeks later.

Jack had a hatred of women or the very least prostitutes - Jacob died of syphllis.

Lady Anderson states that Jtr was sent to an asylum near Stone. Jacob was sent to Stone asylum.

Conjecture.

Jack was sent to his brothers home before being sent to the asylum. The local police were watching him. Could they have meant brother -in - law.
Isaac Barnett married an Elizabeth Levy. Jacob had a sister called Elizabeth. He was the only one who visited Jacob at the asylum. If it is the same person that would make him Jacobs brother in law.

What if Caroline Jacob's mother did have his step sisters out of wedlock before meeting Joseph. We also know that Hannah Levy was born a in 1847 and yet Joseph and Caroline didn't marry until sep 1848. Was there a stigma that Jacob found hard to cope with.

For those who don't think that Elizabeth Stride was a Jtr killer, could the fact that Catherine Eddowes had been so savagely mutilated be because she had let him know she suspected him and tried to blackmail him, so he flew into a rage.

Tj

[Radical Joe]

Glad to see that there is more information on Levy out there, and that people are checking it out. For a while now I've considered Levy to be a viable suspect, based on the relatively little I've read on him, but assumed that we'd reached a dead-end regards available info. It'll be interesting to see if anything tangible emerges from this.

[tji]

Hi all

Jimi noticed that in a report it stated that Jacob's eldest brother died of an unsound mind, but I think this must have been a simple mistake as Jacob's eldest brother was Isaac Levy who lived to the ripe old age of 52, dying of Bronchitis, pulmonary t.b and exhaustion. He had married a Clara Marks and according to some reports had an amazing 19 children!!!

Can see where the exhaustion part came in.

Wondering whether the report should have stated Jacob's elder brother died of an unsound mind, Abraham Levy was 2 years older than Jacob and he hanged himself while of an unsound mind in May 26 1875 aged 21.

Interestingly Mark King states that Jacob's maternal uncle dies insane and his grandfather died from epilepsy aged 36.

Obviously there was some sort of mental problems in the family.



Tj

[tji]

Hi Tom

yes we have read the dissertations by Scott Nelson and Mark King on here, they are very good.

Tj

[tji]

Hi Tom


Who was who's cousin?



Jacob Levy was Joesph Levy the witnesses cousin. Their fathers were brothers, we are not saying that we are the first to notice this but a lot of articles and books question why Joseph wouldn't i.d. the witness, this could answer that question, he would be going against his family, and they seemed to be a close family.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jimi and Teej,

Who was who's cousin? Have you guys read all the Ripperologist articles from Scott, et al? I should re-read them, because I'm lost. LOL

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Jimi


Personally i didn`t know about lady Andersons remarks. Thanks for that.
Although TJ says she Knew. Yeah,like thats gonna happen, a woman knowing more than a MAN. no,no,no. LOL.


Obviously you are just jealous of my superior research skills and knowledge.

Tj