Killer description and Suspect appearance

[Jeff Leahy]

A

Anderson's crumbling memory, I believe, jumbled Sadler-Grainger, and the witness brought in to 'confront' them, Lawende, with Kosminski's incarceration around the same time.

.

There is no evidence that Anderson's memory was CRUMBLING this is a myth.

Pirate

[mklhawley]

Excellent thread folks!

Mike

[Rapunzel676]

All Jews look alike? All Slavs are dark? Druitt was a homosexual? This is all news to me.

One should never let the facts get in the way of a good theory, particularly if the facts are definitely ascertained.

[jason_c]

Jonathan,
I see your theory a bit better now. But I must say I dont see Macnaghten as nearly so complex a person as you present him.Yes,he did produce the 1894 report ,a prepared set of information to deflect from the Sun"s articles about Thomas Cutbush, the "nephew" of Superintendent Charles Cutbush ,being the Ripper.This was in the same month ,the previous week,in February 1894 in case required-and as a safeguard.
But beyond that there doesnt seem much to distinguish him . Up to 1889 he had worked as a tea planter in Bengal.Nothing too eventful.I dont see him as a plotter but as a loyal friend to James Monro who invited him to take the post of assistant chief constable in the first place and who would be his lead confidant in Whitehall when Monro retired to Aberdeen.
But the stories about his collection are intriguing in the sense that they reveal a bit of a twinkle in his eye and this gives the lie to me that Macnaghten would have not been shy to come forward,had he really known the identity of Jack the Ripper.What kudos----had he actually been able to turn round to Major Smith and say,"Aha! you might have been able to scotch Anderson"s claim to fame over JtR,but you cant do so over my claim......look I have the proof!And the world would have sat up and listened.Nothing would have given Mac more pleasure to have been known as the cop who told the world who the ripper really was.
No,he didnt have real evidence,the rock solid evidence Jonathan.Nobody did ----moreover he never actually claimed to have it---just some "private information"----it was probably stuff about Monty telling his startled brother that he was Jack the Ripper and not Napoleon.
Still its worth your effort.You never know something may turn up to show you were right!
All the Very Best
Norma

Natalie

For once I agree with you.

Let it be the last.

[Jonathan H]

To Pirate

If you accept that Aaron Kosminski was not a contemporaneous witness, and if you accept that this is the suspect about whom Anderson writes without identifying then, logically, his memory was crumbling/fading by 1910 [arguably even earlier] and this is proven by his comments about things that did not happen in 1888 [a treacherous Jew witness who definitely identified a Polish Jew suspect], and his lack of mentioning things we know did happen in 1891 and 1895 [a co-operative Jewish wtiness who said 'no' and yes' to two different suspects, neither of whom was a fellow Jew].

Do I know that is exactly what happened?

No I don't and I never will.

It may not have happened that way.

But I have to make judgment calls based on measuring Anderson as a source against all the other sources, which are admittedly meager and limited and contradictory.

I don't think Anderson was a liar or an Anti-Semite.

I do think he was arrogant and pompous and vain. His memory let him down in a predictably self-serving way which is true of most memoirs -- and certainly true of his.

On the other hand, the compelling counter-argument is that two, vital primary sources -- the head of CID in 1888 backed by the operational head of the case -- seemed to have agreed that Kosminski was the best suspect by a country mile to be the fiend.

Whatever memory distortions and/or errors may be in play, another primary source proves that an Aaron Kosminski really did exist. He was a Polish Jew who lived in Whitechapel, he did suffer from sexual dysfunction, he did have some kind of capacity for violence, and he was 'safely caged' in an asylum [for the rest of his life until 1919, not 'died soon afterwards' as Swanson appears to have thought].

Even Kosminski's incarceration a few days before the Coles murder dovetails perfectly with the painful Sadler debacle as the police would hardly have stuck their necks out if they already had a 'definitely ascertained fact' on ice. Kosminski's late appearance as a Ripper suspect, in 1891 or soon after, matches Scotland Yard's fruitless attempts to find a killer about whose identity they seem to have been far from certain -- until too late, until he was beyond their reach forever.

Kosminski must remain one of a trio of genuine, strong [because of the sources] police suspects -- and the only one who actually lived in the vicinity of the crimes.

If you think that Anderson actually had an excellent, or at least pretty reliable memory, I am happy to entertain such an argument with an open mind.

[Jonathan H]

Sorry I meant to write contemporaneous SUSPECT not 'witness' in the first line of my previous post.

[Jeff Leahy]

To Pirate

If you accept that Aaron Kosminski was not a contemporaneous SUSPECT, and if you accept that this is the suspect about whom Anderson writes without identifying then, logically, his memory was crumbling/fading by 1910 [arguably even earlier] and this is proven by his comments about things that did not happen in 1888 [a treacherous Jew witness who definitely identified a Polish Jew suspect], and his lack of mentioning things we know did happen in 1891 and 1895 [a co-operative Jewish wtiness who said 'no' and yes' to two different suspects, neither of whom was a fellow Jew].

Do I know that is exactly what happened?

No I don't and I never will.

It may not have happened that way.

But I have to make judgment calls based on measuring Anderson as a source against all the other sources, which are admittedly meager and limited and contradictory.

I don't think Anderson was a liar or an Anti-Semite.

I do think he was arrogant and pompous and vain. His memory let him down in a predictably self-serving way which is true of most memoirs -- and certainly true of his.

On the other hand, the compelling counter-argument is that two, vital primary sources -- the head of CID in 1888 backed by the operational head of the case -- seemed to have agreed that Kosminski was the best suspect by a country mile to be the fiend.

Whatever memory distortions and/or errors may be in play, another primary source proves that an Aaron Kosminski really did exist. He was a Polish Jew who lived in Whitechapel, he did suffer from sexual dysfunction, he did have some kind of capacity for violence, and he was 'safely caged' in an asylum [for the rest of his life until 1919, not 'died soon afterwards' as Swanson appears to have thought].

Even Kosminski's incarceration a few days before the Coles murder dovetails perfectly with the painful Sadler debacle as the police would hardly have stuck their necks out if they already had a 'definitely ascertained fact' on ice. Kosminski's late appearance as a Ripper suspect, in 1891 or soon after, matches Scotland Yard's fruitless attempts to find a killer about whose identity they seem to have been far from certain -- until too late, until he was beyond their reach forever.

Kosminski must remain one of a trio of genuine, strong [because of the sources] police suspects -- and the only one who actually lived in the vicinity of the crimes.

If you think that Anderson actually had an excellent, or at least pretty reliable memory, I am happy to entertain such an argument with an open mind.

Hi Jonathon

I’m not in disagreement with your post. Although personally I’d say there were five suspects at the time that require serious consideration.

My point about Anderson is fairly clear, he does appear to have muddled some information while retelling some accounts. But it was late, they had been talking a while and Anderson was tiered. There is NO evidence what so ever that Anderson was suffering any mental problems apart from ‘getting older’.

And as I have pointed out frequently this is something everyone suffers from on a daily basis.

It’s not a question of losing your facilities when you’re remembering something from ten or even twenty years ago. You simply forget stuff. Its natural. We all do it.

Anderson clearly referred back to notes. We know this because he makes changes to his accounts in TLSOMOL, from an earlier article. Making some fairly detailed corrections. There is also no evidence that Swanson ever went senile.

So if your going to make generalized comments about Anderson’s mental health please be specific and supply sources. I think it fair to say that he made mistakes in detail I agree. But that is a long way from jumping to him creating the story he did about a Polish Jewish suspect. And interestingly nothing researched or uncovered about that suspect, has really dis-proven or dismissed what he claimed.

Many thanks for your interesting post.

Yours Pirate

[Jonathan H]

No worries, Pirate.

We seem to be in broad agreement -- I think?

No doubt as debates arise we will see how we go.

By the way, I actually look like a 'pirate' because I have to wear an eye-patch due to being blind in my right eye, like PM Brown.

[spyglass]

hi all!
Did'nt all men in those days have moustache's, if you look at the photo's from that era nearly everyone looks identical ( including some of the women )

[Jeff Leahy]

No worries, Pirate.

We seem to be in broad agreement -- I think?

No doubt as debates arise we will see how we go.

By the way, I actually look like a 'pirate' because I have to wear an eye-patch due to being blind in my right eye, like PM Brown.

Then ye be welcome aboard me ship, any time your on the River Medway

Pirate

[Gman992]

hi all!
Did'nt all men in those days have moustache's, if you look at the photo's from that era nearly everyone looks identical ( including some of the women )

That's what I said!!!!!

[Gman992]

[QUOTE=Jonathan H;126364]An excellent post, Norma

I agree to some extent about Anderson.

I don't think he was anti-Semitic,

Oh...I think that he was big time anti-Semitic!!!! I mean why did he say a Polish "Jew" instead of a Polish immigrant?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Jonathan H!

Well, I find it possible, that he could have shaved between the murders!

All the best
Jukka

[JTRSickert]

Or have worn a disguise, which is somethign I have always considered.

[DVV]

Hi JTRS,

Cornwell again ?

Amitiés,
David