Did Astrakhan Man exist?

[Sally]

totally off topic sorry, but I just wanted to say I do like the little quotes you use after your posts.

Jen

Thankyou Babybird! I was talking about Rommel just the other night (as you do ?) - and I just fancied this one for a while.

Back to Astroman!

[babybird67]

some general points on the viability of Astrakhan

1. If you believe that Astrakhan existed, you must also believe he was Kelly's killer, because of the length of time he was in her room and the fact that this time was close to her TOD as based on medical knowledge at the time.

2. It follows from 2, that you must believe he was the Ripper, unless you believe Mary was murdered by someone other than the Ripper. You would then have to reconcile the similarities of Mary's murder with those of the other victims and explain why the man capable of such frenzied murder and mutilation would only strike once...and how two men with a fetish for mutilation and murder were striking in a very small geographical area at exactly the same time.

3. Whether or not you believe Hutch was or was not the killer, it is very difficult to reconcile a belief in his honest description of Astrkhan with the fact that nobody resembling Astrakhan was seen in connection with any of the other murders atttributed to the Ripper, or by anybody else around Whitechapel that night. In fact, all the other witnesses describe seeing suspects the polar opposite of Astrakhan.

4. You also have to reconcile what Astrakhan chose to wear with his murderous intent as a killer, if he was the Ripper/Mary's killer. No man with pre-meditated murder in mind would dress to attract notice or wear such accessories, which he would have trouble removing to avoid blood splatter etc. So you then either have to accept that Astrakhan was the killer/Ripper but never went out intending to kill Mary/any victim, but this just occurred spontaneously so he didn't plan what to wear, or that he was stupid. I don't think either option is remotely likely. I believe the Ripper went out intending to kill and intending not to be caught; it would not make sense for him to dress like Astrakhan, even if he was a rich gentleman.

5. Therefore if you believe in Hutch's description, it is very difficult not to attribute Mary's killing to Astrakhan...which would then cause problems in categorising her as a canonical, for the above reasons.

Just some personal thoughts...

[Hatchett]

Hello Jen,

I think you have made some excellent and important points there.

A very good post.

Best wishes.

David.

[babybird67]

thank you David



Jen x

[Sally]

The time of Kelly's death was the topic of much speculation in the days immediately following; due in part to witnesses who claimed to have seen her alive and well on the morning of the 9th - and press reports like this one:



The Observer, 11th November 1888

Look at that! A well dressed man with a parcel! The covered in blood thing is almost by the by, really.

The implication regarding Mr. A seems to me to be that he hung about in Kelly's room for quite a while:

I stood there for about three quarters of an hour to see if they came out they did not so I went away.

I presume that he was there all night and only killed her in the morning? Patient, well-dressed, nice coat, and a bit of bling to boot - no wonder Kelly was taken in.


As we know, Mr Hutchinson was safely tucked up in the Victoria Home by then, delighting in the splendid underground kitchens, no doubt.

[babybird67]

haha Sally

nice post.

[Lechmere]

Or Kelly went back out after finishing with the A-man and then met her end

[Lechmere]

Lechmere -I LOVE YOU !

(oh, come on, we were only playing 'hard to get' before)

I suddenly agree with everything you say -but I will reply to you on the 'Hutch and the Hairdresser' thread, because that's where it belongs..

(xxxxx)

Sorry I only just noticed this - I will reply to you on the 'Hutch and the Hairdresser' thread.

[Sally]

Or Kelly went back out after finishing with the A-man and then met her end

I imagine Mr. A would have been in a position to pay, Lechmere, what - with that £140 gold watch* he was sporting and everything. And remember, she'd had a long night - pails of beer with Blotchy; post-midnight singing sessions; and a whirl with a foreign toff.

Go out for another trick after all that? (in the cold, wet, November morning) Nah.

And besides, she would have wanted to be fresh for the Lord Mayor's Show, which, lest it has slipped your mind, was that very day.

* or similar

[Lechmere]

Sally
Maybe she wanted to pay off her rent arrears. Who can say? With any degree of certainty.
If being fresh for the Lord Mayor's Show was her priority I'm sure she wouldn't have been boozing, singing and tricking into the small hours anyway.
Most of her neighbours don't seem to have been getting dizzy with excitment for the Show according to accounts of Dorset Street and Millars Court that morning.

[Wickerman]

1. If you believe that Astrakhan existed, you must also believe he was Kelly's killer, because of the length of time he was in her room and the fact that this time was close to her TOD as based on medical knowledge at the time.

Due to the lack of an official post-mortem report from Dr Phillips, we cannot determine what he thought as to the specific time of death, there probably was no definite time offered given the condition of the body.

As Bond guessed at an approximate time between 1:00-2:00am, and Phillips is reported to have estimated unofficially a time of death of 5:00-6:00am, the truth must lie somewhere inbetween.

Our only real guide, as you know, are the various cries of "murder", heard between 3:30-4:00am.

This actually leaves a full half-hour from when Hutchinson departed the court and the first cry of "murder", and perhaps even 45 mins, as the cry could have been as late as 3:45am

Do not forget, Cox returned through the court at 3:00, perhaps just as Hutchinson left and according to Cox, "the light was out and there was no noise".
Perhaps this is only a reference to the lamp outside No.13, as McCarthy's is said to have closed at 3:00am then presumably he also turned out the passage light?
Regardless, the possiblity exists that Kelly went out again, or at least her visitor left and another came calling...
I am certainly not arguing he was not her killer, but neither am I arguing he was.

Event are not so certain as some like to think.

Given that not everyone is convinced the BS-man killed Stride, and he was assaulting her about 10 mins before her murder, 30-45 minutes from 3:00 am to the first cry of murder is an awful long time, in comparison.

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
It is my opinion that the alleged cry heard by some residents of the court, is a ''red herring'' .
Mrs Prater actually describes it as '' awakening from a nightmare'', and if this was indeed the case, and if indeed the doctors took this cry, as fixing the T.O.D, then the events of that morning ,take a different shape.
If the remarks to Canadian reporter Kit Watkins some three years after, by the then resident of room 13 Lottie, can be believed, that being that Mary Kelly, had a ''bad dream'' in October, the subject of the dream being, that she was being murdered , would it not be rather apt in the actual words allegedly used by Kelly 'Oh ..Murder'?
Would a dream re-occur on the very morning of her death, what a coincidence many will say, but there are many pointers to Mary being extremely frightened ..note the sleepovers, even the day before she had remarked to Mrs McCarthy ''he is a concern'' [jack], the fact that she took home Blotchy for company, and even possibly 'A' man, would indicate fear of being alone in room 13, don't forget she had that ''Bad dream'' on that bed , in that room.
The very fact that she was indeed murdered in that room, on the bed ,that she had foreseen her death, could indicate that her killer may have been well aware of the initial dream.
So list of suspects, would include..
Residents of the court
Mr, and Mrs McCarthy.
Joe Barnett,
The other Joe,
Her sleepover friends.
People she associated with, in Dorset street, and various pubs in the area.
Outside of that ..it would be doubtful if any one new of Kelly's dream.
Everyone assumes that The killers ''luck'' was in when he met Kelly , her having access to a room, but I am not so sure there, what if her killer wanted to make her dreams come true, in the very place she dreamt , and what's more on the same bed..?
Way of thread folks... but it would give a explanation to why Hutchinson's man waited over a hour before striking, simply he did not kill her , neither did the cry indicate her meeting her maker, although if he was in her room , must have scared the daylights out of him, he or anyone in that room, at that time, who was not her killer , could hardly come forth and present themselves after the murder was known could they?
I appreciate I speculate, but I believe alternative views, may well hold the answer.
Regards Richard.