Did Astrakhan Man exist?

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"Oh, if only it were that simple Fish."

In this case it IS simple, Sally. Hutchinson gave a description to the press of his man that tallied extremely well with the police report description, bit by bit. Only very few parameters changed.

This is not a matter for discussion. It is exact, mathematical science. Disagree if you wish, but that alters nothing.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Abby Normal:

"However, Fish, when you go to such lengths, i.e. trying to discredit witnesses like lewis and Prater, it kind of hurts your credibility and makes one wonder how far you will go to back your theory (to the disservice of your theory IMHO)."

Have you noticed that George Chapman, George Hutchinson, Fogelma, James Kelly, Lewis Carroll, Francis Tumblety, Joe Barnett and a bunch of other contenders all stand accused for being a vicious ripper and eviscerator? That is the doings of men like Stewart Evans, Ben Holme, Bob Hinton and Bruce Paley.

I donīt hear you saying that these researchers should be discredited for suggesting such a terrible thing? Or are you?

What I am doing is to suggest that Lewis and Prater may not have been truthful, a suggestion that has been forwarded about Packer, Mortimer, Schwartz, Hutchinson and other people involved in the investigation.

But I donīt heary ou discrediting the people who have suggested this either? Now, why would that be, Abby? Should not ALL people who suggest unreliability on behalf of ANY of these people connected to the investigation be discredited? Or do special rules attach to the ones who question witnesses that seemingly strengthen the case against George Hutchinson. Is that it? Hmmm? An explanation, please - how do I know whoīse reliability I may question?

Why is it - really - that the suggestion that two women, living in a community that is universally accepted as not always being truthful, could ALSO have been less than truthful, is so, eh..."discrediting"?

And when did YOU get to judge who is to be discredited and who is not?

Itīs time to wake up to the realities of life, Abby. People are not always telling the truth. And people who offer THREE (3) different testimonies, the way Prater did, are not necessarily saints and honest. Surely, Abby, you can understand that if you think it over?

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
I never said nor meant that you as a researcher/theorist or writer should be discredited. (sorry if it came across as such).On the contrary-you should be lauded for your work. And i did. I lauded you-remember?

I just think that your persistant advocation of such a detail as reliable witnesses like prater and lewis being liars is a stretch and hurts your cause. They are no where near in the same boat as controversial witnesses like Packer, Violena, and yes Hutch. Someone has to be telling the truth, Fish-we have to draw the line somewhere, or the whole thing is a just a house of cards.

[Abby Normal]

Sally:

"Oh, if only it were that simple Fish."

In this case it IS simple, Sally. Hutchinson gave a description to the press of his man that tallied extremely well with the police report description, bit by bit. Only very few parameters changed.

This is not a matter for discussion. It is exact, mathematical science. Disagree if you wish, but that alters nothing.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi again Fish

Hutchinson gave a description to the press of his man that tallied extremely well with the police report description, bit by bit. Only very few parameters changed.

I would say that the description of A-man tallies well (perhaps) between police and press, but its the press added description that he went into the court and stood by her house which should also set the alarm bells ringing with regard to his credibility.

[Sally]

What?

This is not a matter for discussion. It is exact, mathematical science. Disagree if you wish, but that alters nothing.

It's the middle bit I'm not sure about...

[sleekviper]

Hello Ben,
He was at a point to observe should Barnett lose his anger and the man she was with dashes away. It can not be assumed that he knows Barnett is out of the picture, if it has been stated, then I have not seen it. He clearly does not know who this odd man is, so he can not say if it is a relative, stranger, or possible friend that also knows Barnett. He knows the individual seems out of place, he does not like the situation, but all that he can do is follow. If the situation were going to be one that would cause Kelly harm, it may have been his thoughts that it would happen shortly after they were inside, but it did not seem to go as he may have feared.

[Ben]

Hi Sleek,

He knows the individual seems out of place, he does not like the situation, but all that he can do is follow.

That's not strictly true.

He could have done several things if he entertained genuine fears for Kelly's safety, such as alert a policeman, or discourage Kelly from going with the man, or even stationing himself in the court where he was in a much better position to protect Kelly in the event of the Astrakhan man getting slashy.

Hi Sally,

A funny thing happened to me on the way back from Romford the other day: I saw a pig flying. Yep, just soaring happily through the sky wearing a fluffy ankle-bracelet and a ring through its surly-looking nose. My suspicions were aroused by its defiance of the laws of gravity, but I had no suspicions that it was a murderous pig. I stood there for three quarters of an hour waiting for it to sing an eighties power ballad, but it didn’t, so I went away.

If you don’t believe any of this, just you wait until tomorrow. If I provide the same account again without deviating from it, and without referring back to what I’ve just written, that means I’m telling the truth.

Well, according to some anyway!

All the best,

“Insignificant” Ben

[Sally]

A funny thing happened to me on the way back from Romford the other day: I saw a pig flying. Yep, just soaring happily through the sky wearing a fluffy ankle-bracelet and a ring through its surly-looking nose. My suspicions were aroused by its defiance of the laws of gravity, but I had no suspicions that it was a murderous pig. I stood there for three quarters of an hour waiting for it to sing an eighties power ballad, but it didn’t, so I went away.

If you don’t believe any of this, just you wait until tomorrow. If I provide the same account again without deviating from it, and without referring back to what I’ve just written, that means I’m telling the truth.

Ben, I expect exactly the same tail... er... tale, I mean, tomorrow, or there'll be trouble. No changing his ankle-bracelet from fluffy to leather, or anything dubious like that. And no embellishing his nose ring, either.

Right?

By the way, what were you doing in Romford?

[Ben]

“No changing his ankle-bracelet from fluffy to leather, or anything dubious like that. And no embellishing his nose ring, either.”

Deal!

Well, actually, I might chuck in earmuffs, a turtle neck sweater and an olivaceous hue to one of its rear trotters, but as long as I can retain enough consistency with my original version, pigs fly and that’s all there is to it.

“By the way, what were you doing in Romford?”

Oh, errrr, me?

($hit!)

I was just, um, y’know, walking about all night, as you do.

Honest!

[Sally]

earmuffs, a turtle neck sweater and an olivaceous hue to one of its rear trotters

Wow! That is one stylish pig! Do you think he actually came from Romford? He wasn't wearing a thick gold chain, was he?

Oh, errrr, me?

($hit!)

I was just, um, y’know, walking about all night, as you do.

Honest!

Ok. Sounds reasonable enough to me.

[Ben]

Oh I believe he lived in the neighbourhood, Sally, and I fancy I saw him at a sausage stall on Petticoat Lane, but I could not be certain (as you'd expect!)

[sleekviper]

Hello Ben,
He does not know the situation with Kelly. Tell a policeman that a boyfriend to a friend might be upset that she is walking with a man, but he is not sure if the boyfriend knows this man? Unless spats and a fur coat are against the law, he has nothing to report, just act on instinct.

[Sally]

Oh I believe he lived in the neighbourhood, Sally, and I fancy I saw him at a sausage stall on Petticoat Lane, but I could not be certain (as you'd expect!)

Yeah right. A pig at a sausage stall? Pull the other one!

[Sally]

He does not know the situation with Kelly. Tell a policeman that a boyfriend to a friend might be upset that she is walking with a man, but he is not sure if the boyfriend knows this man? Unless spats and a fur coat are against the law, he has nothing to report, just act on instinct

Hi Sleekviper

I'm not sure how this works? Are you saying that Hutchinson didn't know the situation with Kelly by the Sunday following her murder? How could he have avoided knowing? I think Rubyretro has done an excellent job of demonstrating how difficult it would be not to have heard (on another thread)If he was her friend, as he claimed, why wouldn't he have gone straight to the police on the Friday?

Come to that, if he and she were such good friends, why wouldn't he have known about Barnett?

Come to that, how come nobody else who knew Kelly ever seems to have known him?

I wonder about this, I have to say.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that the '''very good friend'' aspect was overplayed, one gets the impression that Mary Kelly always was on the lookout for a handout, she seems the sort of person that used her charm and ''desperation plight'', to supplement a drink problem, and Hutchinson was just one of many that fell for her personality, on occasions .
One has to feel so sorry for her predicament .
Regards Richard.

[Fisherman]

Abby:

"I lauded you-remember?"

I have a selective memory at times, Abby. What leaps to mind from that post of yours is this:

"However, Fish, when you go to such lengths, i.e. trying to discredit witnesses like lewis and Prater, it kind of hurts your credibility and makes one wonder how far you will go to back your theory (to the disservice of your theory IMHO).
If your at a party and 10 people tell you your drunk, its time for bed, Fish."

I have been lauded in clearer fashions, I must say

If ten people think I am wrong, I listen to their counterarguments and ponder them. If I find the arguments good, I change my mind. If I find them bad, I donīt.
The latter applies very much in this case.

The best,
Fisherman