Ripper's physical strength

[JTRSickert]

What does everyone think of the Ripper's physical strength? Do you think he was a pretty strong individual or just someone of average, ordinary strength. If we accept Martha Tabram as a Ripper victim and then Annie Chapman, both of them were "big" women so if the Ripper was able to overpower them, it could show a display of excessive strength. True, Martha was only repeatedly stabbed as opposed to strangled, but considering he was able to inflict 39 stab wounds without her evading him may show that he was tough one to get away from. However, if Stride was a Ripper victim, she seems to have put up more of a fight and he actually had to throw her to the ground to subdue her. We don't know what happened after Schwartz and Pipe Man walked away. So, it's possible that the reason Stride wasn't mutilated excessively is because she continued to struggle and he had trouble controlling her. Perhaps by the time he was finally able to cut her throat is when the Diemschutz cart was close enough for him to hear it coming and he knew he had to hide quick.

So. does any of this show he was a strong guy, average, or rather a weakling?

[babybird67]

i think all of this talk of physical strength is missing the point...

none of these situations were examples of a fair fight. None of these women, whatever their physical conditions or their strength as appraised anecdotally or conjecturally, were for one moment expecting to be meeting their deaths at the hands of this man. You cannot appraise each encounter as if it were a combative situation where either could have gained the advantage dependent upon physical attributes.

It was late. The women, in the main, were soliciting, not beefing up for a fight to the death; drink, that great enhancer of the reflexes , was involved a lot of the time; most importantly, these women were taken off guard, surprised, not expecting to have their throats slit. Even if they had been fully prepared for what they were faced with, they were still women, who, on average, are weaker than the average man. That's simple biology.

Really, it is completely irrelevant how strong/weak either the Ripper or his victims were. They were not being equitably matched in a boxing ring...they were predator and prey, stalker and stalked, murderer and victims. Their deaths attest to that, no matter how anybody wants to romanticise them as strong non-victim types. They are dead; they were victims; they were no match for the murderer in what was essentially an unfair fight, as is every murder. Never underestimate the element of surprise; it always gives the advantage, every time.

[Maggyann]

Yes I think there strength or lack of it is not an issue. They were females, undernourished to some extent, possibly intoxicated and wearing practically all the clothes they owned so movement hampered to some extent. I dont think JTR has to have been particularly strong and he had the element of surprise and at least some planning on his side even if it was just a few minutes assessing a possible victim.

[JTRSickert]

Hey babybird.
What you wrote was rather interesting concerning the victims, but one thing we have to remember is that the East End was a rather rough place. Prostitutes were often targets of gangs and bullies, etc. So, it stands to reason these women had to be a little cautious sometimes and may have learned to fight back in case any of them were set upon by some rough customers and so on. Also, in Cadosch's testimony, he said he heard someone say "No" and, shortly after, a large noise hitting the fence. Now, the noise may not necessarily have been just her body falling against it. It could be sign of a slight struggle in order to get her under control. And, while it is known she was involved in a fight with Eliza Cooper a few days before her murder (another example of how "tough" some of these women could get), the bruises on her may not necessarily have been a result from just that encounter. Besides, understanding the Ripper's strength is another crucial factor in understanding and categorizing the type of killer he is. If the FBI or Scotland Yard was investigating his crimes today, it most certainly would be an aspect they would have to look into in order to identify or rule out suspects.

[babybird67]

hi JTRS

Hey babybird.
What you wrote was rather interesting concerning the victims, but one thing we have to remember is that the East End was a rather rough place. Prostitutes were often targets of gangs and bullies, etc. So, it stands to reason these women had to be a little cautious sometimes and may have learned to fight back in case any of them were set upon by some rough customers and so on.

I 'remember' it well, JTRS. Again, you are making a point without thinking it through. Certainly it was a rough place, but it was a rough place for both sexes, for men and women alike, and what's more Victorian morals completely sanctioned the use of physical violence against women in institutions like marriage. There were even discussions as to the actual width of the sticks a man was able to use to beat his errant wife with, and whether a certain thickness was acceptable or not. The culture of the time encouraged male brutality to females, and the men no doubt imbibed this culture along with the very same social conditions you are claiming toughened up women; men, just the same, were toughened up by living in poverty and crime. And, all other things being equal, my point still stands, that biology dictates that the average male is much stronger than the average female. With surprise on his side, as well, these women did not stand a chance...i think they were dead before they even realised that they were even being attacked, to be honest. Being a tough cookie and being attacked by an assailant or a gang of assailants wielding knives and/or other weapons (as in the Ripper victims, Emma Smith etc) are two different things. Strength of the woman was completely irrelevant, as, i believe, strength of the assailant. He had a knife and he had surprise on his side. That was enough.

Also, in Cadosch's testimony, he said he heard someone say "No" and, shortly after, a large noise hitting the fence. Now, the noise may not necessarily have been just her body falling against it. It could be sign of a slight struggle in order to get her under control.

If there was a struggle there would have been more than one noise. There would have been the noise of the assault and the noise of its resistance. One noise alone suggests to me there was no appreciable struggle.

And, while it is known she was involved in a fight with Eliza Cooper a few days before her murder (another example of how "tough" some of these women could get), the bruises on her may not necessarily have been a result from just that encounter.

Women fighting women in an argument over a man tells us nothing about how strong either of them were physically when faced with an attack by a knife-wielding man.

Besides, understanding the Ripper's strength is another crucial factor in understanding and categorizing the type of killer he is. If the FBI or Scotland Yard was investigating his crimes today, it most certainly would be an aspect they would have to look into in order to identify or rule out suspects.

It may be, but we have no evidence of what type of man he physically was do we? If we did have evidence we would not have suspects proposed as physically different as the giant of Tumblety and the smaller weaker 'Jill" the Ripper. We can rule so few people out if trying to ascertain type precisely for this reason. We have only conjecture. That he was able to kill several women does not mean he was either stronger or weaker than the average man of the times, so essentially, speculating either way leads us nowhere other than a blind alleyway.

[Hatchett]

Hi.

I agree with you Baby Bird.

It is true that Whitechapel was a tough place, and people had to be tough to survive. The victims were street women, so it is reasonable to assume that they were street wise women, and indeed possibly hard women. But they were women well into the effects of years of under nourishment and alcohol abuse. Physical deterioration has to be taken into consideration.

But more importantly they were women in a vulnerable position. They were planning to briefly sell their bodies. The killer was planning and was prepared to kill them. He was armed. And he knew exactly what he was doing. With each murder his intention would have been more confident, and his method more honed.

Strength, I would argue, is not the issue here. Knife, surprise, speed and pre planned intention is the key.

Best wishes.

[JTRSickert]

While I do understand the social and historical contexts of how women were treated back then, I don't believe it is a moot point to discuss the physical attributes of the murderer. I personally am more interested in the "true-crime" aspects of the case rather than the social/historical context in which it occured. But, that's just me. That being said, I just think understanding how JTR was able to execute his actions is worth discussing, and physical strength is a definite element of the discussion. let me provide with another example.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the killer of Stride and Eddowes are both one and the same. Now, if we assume that JTR did not commit mutilations on Stride due to the fact of the approaching cart by Diemschutz, he had to hide quickly and then duck out of there when he had the quickest opportunity. And, it stands to reason he wouldn't just be strolling away; at the very least, he would be walking at a quick pace in order to reach Mitre Square shortly afterwards. Also, since he knows that people (in particular, the police) are gonna be looking for him, then his adrenaline rush would certainly be kicking in at this point. This, combined with his frustrated bloodlust, would cause him to quicky seek out another victim. Now, given that the pros at the time didn't need much convincing to take on a client, he could have easily solicited Eddowes while still in the throes of feeling the adrenaline. Now, what does adrenaline do to the human body? Well, 2 important things are: increased strength and stamina. Perhaps this could account for the reason JTR was able to inflict such horrendous mutilations on Eddowes and carry it out in a fairly short amount of time.

[perrymason]

If some of the Ripper killings are any indication, and if he worked without aide or aides, then the murders of Mary Ann, Annie and Kate suggest that he had enough strength to subdue the women with little or no noise, and have them lying on the ground unresisting when he pulls out his knife. They all appear to been attacks without obvious struggles.

With one man using some form of strangulation, thats still saying something about his physical strength....these women would be aware they were fighting for their very lives and certainly not just acquiesce.

Now...if something like a sedative was administered, then all he'd need is enough strength to poke a needle into the neck.....for example.

I trying to assess whether in some cases I can believe that may have been his method.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

walk

Hello JTR.

"And, it stands to reason he wouldn't just be strolling away; at the very least, he would be walking at a quick pace in order to reach Mitre Square shortly afterwards."

Shortly? Well, half an hour or so. I think that's a quarter hour walk.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

hand strength

Hello Mike.

"With one man using some form of strangulation, that[']s still saying something about his physical strength[.]"

Quite right. I'm sure you are aware of the point that Druitt was known for his great hand strength?

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

I'm sure you are aware of the point that Druitt was known for his great hand strength?

... so was Kosminski, but for rather different reasons

[lynn cates]

livestock

Hello Sam. On another thread, it was suggested that Druitt first developed a problem whilst gutting pigs.

Are you suggesting that Kosminski started by choking chickens?

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Sam. On another thread, it was suggested that Druitt first developed a problem whilst gutting pigs.

Are you suggesting that Kosminski started by choking chickens?

That's how these things escalate, Lynn. You start off small, and before you know it, you're on the hard stuff

[lynn cates]

analysis

Hello Sam. Given your, as usual, astute analysis, I see you have the situation well in hand.

The best.
LC

[JTRSickert]

Wouldn't all that strenous "arm exercise" only build up the strength of one arm though?

I keed. Anyway, let's get back to the topic at hand. I had this question. In order to do what was done to Mary Kelly, would a fair amount of exertion be involved? Would a person of considerable strength need to skin and butcher that body of Kelly? Also, is just a simple knife a powerful enough took to skin all those layers of flesh off of her, or does someone think a more powerful tool was used>