Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[The Good Michael]

Sometimes... many times, the subject matter of a book makes it unworthy of reading. The idea of what was written can be dismissed offhand without reading it based upon a simple jacket paragraph. Often all one gets out of speculative books is a load of nonsense to purge oneself of. I'm still distraught over reading The Book of Mormon, for example, and anyone just reading about Joseph Smith's life can understand why he made up such a thing without ever having to read it.

That doesn't mean this book is in the same ballpark, but I'm not reading it anyway.

Mike

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello Fisherman and Michael

Well, I beg to differ from you. The workhouse was a separate place from the mortuary if you look at the map John Benett has provided here, you will see that Robert Mann had to get out of the workhouse to go to the mortuary. The mortuary assistants had their own uniform too. Look at the thread about mortuary assistant uniforms that Cappuchina has provided, it is a gentleman's jacket with a round hat. So all this nonsense about "It couldn't be Mann because he couldn't get out of the workhouse" is false. He had to get out of the workhouse to go to the mortuary to work. Now then, both places were close to each other. Some of the dead women ended up at Mann's place of work because the deaths happened in the perimeter where he worked.

This case very much reminds me of the Norwich serial killer of prostitutes some two years ago. The geographical profilers plotted the area in a map where the murders had taken place and deduced from that that it had to be a local man. The case was finally clinched when the last prostitute was seen getting into a blue car, later thanks to the cameras that are in place all around the red district of that area, the camera kept on spotting this blue car with the exact model stated by the witness to see the last victim and low and behold, the murderer lived just behind the light district where he was picking up his victims. If we draw parallels, I would say that geographical profiling is a valuable tool in detecting murders and this is why it is used around the world. Why there is so much scepticism about expert opinions here ? In this programme appeared a respected pathologist, Dr. Peter Dean, Professor Laurence Alison of the university of Liverpool whose opinions I certainly won't disregard off hand. Specially against people who have already made up their minds without any basis other than looking at a book's jacket. Which opinion has more merit for me ? The one of trusted professionals in their field or some amateur ripperologists ? or worse, authors who have written books about other suspects and do not wish to have their own work overshadowed by a more interesting suspect than theirs.

[dixon9]

scarlet

As i have said regarding the Polly Nichols murder,Mann had to be got from the workhouse(by the police) to go and open the mortuary as Polly's body was still outside on the ambulance.The police must have gone for him before five as his time of arrival(at mortuary) was between 5-5.20 am.Now are you saying he could have done the deed say at 3.30.am went back to the workhouse and be let in,without arousing any suspicion whatsoever?

Dixon9
still learning

[Chris]

scarletpimpernel

I have asked you twice to clarify the claim you made above, and I'll ask you a third time. Are you really claiming there are "reports" saying it was easy to "go in and out" of Whitechapel workhouse unnoticed? If so, where are they?

[Chris]

Look at the thread about mortuary assistant uniforms that Cappuchina has provided, it is a gentleman's jacket with a round hat.

What cappuccina posted was simply a photo of unknown date taken at an unknown location showing a group of variously dressed men present at a post mortem . One is wearing a white coat, half the others are wearing aprons. The rest appear to be wearing ordinary clothes. Seven have hats, four don't.

To claim on this basis that Whitechapel workhouse in 1888 had a "mortuary uniform", which Mann would have sometimes worn, is a breathtaking leap.

[Fisherman]

Scarletpimpernel writes:

"I beg to differ from you."

Please do - that is what a debate is all about! My wiew of the matter remains steadfast, though. As I have stated before, it is not just about Mann being a poor suspect, but also about the fact that the book boasts a variety of factual errors. Such things do not encourage too strong a belief in a suspect against whom no evidence at all can be presented.

The geographical proximities you speak of should of course be regarded - but if geographical proximity is something to go by, we are faced with an almighty number of suspects on that count alone, and I dare say that very many of them would make far better suspects than Mann, an aging workhouse inmate who apparently became something of a laughing stock together with his friend Hatfield.

This, however, is my take on it, and you do not need to touch it with a pair of pliers, Scarlet. You are quite welcome to see Mann as a viable suspect should you want to.

The best,
Fisherman

[Septic Blue]

The workhouse was a separate place from the mortuary if you look at the map John Benett has provided here, you will see that Robert Mann had to get out of the workhouse to go to the mortuary. The mortuary assistants had their own uniform too. Look at the thread about mortuary assistant uniforms that Cappuchina has provided, it is a gentleman's jacket with a round hat. So all this nonsense about "It couldn't be Mann because he couldn't get out of the workhouse" is false.

Robert Mann's Wardrobe:

- Civilian Attire: The clothes that Mann was wearing when admitted to the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, in March 1873 (never to be discharged, until his death in 1896). Whenever Mann felt that he was on the verge of having another 'fit', he would quickly change into this same set of attire, which the Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union had kindly allowed him to retain, all those years.

- Workhouse Uniform: Worn by Mann whenever he was in the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, excepting those occasions, during which he suffered from 'fits'. Also worn on certain 'special' occasions, such as when giving inquest testimony, at the Working Lad's Institute.

- Mortuary Assistant Uniform: See Above.

- 'Jack the Ripper' Uniform: See Below (Top-Hat, Cape and Gladstone Bag). Worn on at least six occasions (including one 'double event') - as 'proven' by Mr. Trow (i.e. Mr. Trow has 'proved' that 'Jack the Ripper' committed seven murders).

[John Bennett]

The workhouse was a separate place from the mortuary if you look at the map John Benett has provided here, you will see that Robert Mann had to get out of the workhouse to go to the mortuary.

Scarlet -

Which map do you mean? Are you referring to the one used in the documentary?

[scarletpimpernel]

Thanks for that information.

There is actually something about "in-and-outs" on the same web page I quoted above:
Despite the lengthy admission and discharge procedures, some paupers treated the workhouse as a free lodging, leaving and departing as the fancy took them. It was not unknown for a pauper to discharge himself in the morning and then return demanding re-admission the same evening, possibly the worse for wear from drink. In 1901, one 81-year-old woman named Julia Blumsun recorded 163 separate admissions to the City of London workhouse, while a 40-year-old man in the Poplar workhouse had been in and out 593 times over the period since 1884. These were the most extreme examples of what became known as the "ins-and-outs". Because of the amount of time they took to deal with, became the bane of the workhouse staff's life. Eventually, in the early 1900s, new regulations were introduced to lengthen the amount of notice required depending on how recently an inmate had previously discharged himself.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/life/entry.shtml

.

Chris,

I believe that is your own quote about it.

Fisherman

I'm overwhelmed by your kindness.

[scarletpimpernel]

John,

Can you tell me from the programme if I remember correctly that the distance between the workhouse and the mortuary were about 3 to 5 minutes walk from the scene of the crimes ?

[Chris]

I believe that is your own quote about it.

What I'm asking for is the source of your claim that "there are reports that the Whitechapel workhouse was one of the easiest spikes to go in and out unnoticed."

The paragraph you've just quoted from my post doesn't even mention Whitechapel workhouse, or going in and out unnoticed, or in fact anything relevant to what you said, so that can't be it, can it? (And of course, you have omitted the following paragraph of my post, that explains that "ins and outs" were people who discharged themselves repeatedly from the workhouse - quite different from Robert Mann, who was a long-term inmate.)

So where did your claim come from? Is it from the Jack London book, where there is a remark about Whitechapel being "the easiest spike goin'". If so, as I've already pointed out, the remark refers to the rigour with which new admissions were searched. There is no mention of it being easy to go in and out of the workhouse unnoticed. On the contrary, London's fellow inmates warned him that if he were caught trying to escape he would face 14 days' imprisonment, and that he would never be able to re-enter the workhouse.

[John Bennett]

John,

Can you tell me from the programme if I remember correctly that the distance between the workhouse and the mortuary were about 3 to 5 minutes walk from the scene of the crimes ?

Without wanting to get too embroiled in minutae, I have never timed these walking distances myself, and everybody walks at a different pace, obviously. According to my TomTom (and there is no reason to say these are absolutes, they're just sat-nav walking route estimates and modern day ones at that), these are the approx. walking times from the Workhouse (using Trow's 7):

To George Yard - 12 mins
To Buck's Row - 5 mins (I'd say less)
To 29 Hanbury Street - 8 mins
To Berner Street - 11 mins
To Mitre Square - 17 mins
To Dorset Street - 11 mins
To Castle Alley - 12 mins

There would obviously be a certain amount of variation owing to now non-existent shortcuts etc.

Make of it what thou wilt!

[John Bennett]

Scarlet,

further to your question, I've just looked at the documentary. When Mei talks about distances, they seem to be from the White's Row car park, ie Dorset Street area.

But remember, the documentary is a potted (media wizz-friendly) version of the theory. So I hope my earlier walking calculations are helpful if not confidently accurate.

JB

[John Bennett]

- 'Jack the Ripper' Uniform: See Below (Top-Hat, Cape and Gladstone Bag). Worn on at least six occasions (including one 'double event') - as 'proven' by Mr. Trow (i.e. Mr. Trow has 'proved' that 'Jack the Ripper' committed seven murders).

[ATTACH]7028[/ATTACH]

Imagine Graham Chapman as 'The Colonel':

"Right! Stop that! Stop it! It started out as a perfectly good thing about workhouse uniform and now it's just got silly!"

[Chris]

And a bit suspect, I think...