Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

The most obvious problem with the programme was that after all the hype about geographic profiling the suspect neither lived nor worked in either of the areas marked in red on the map!

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Figure 10: Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Elliptical Perspective): Aaron Kosminski; Robert Mann (Mortuary); Robert Mann (Union Infirmary) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Red Dot (Yellow Ellipse): Possible 1888 Residence of Aaron Kosminski

34 Yalford Street, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 56.79" West
Latitude: 51° 30' 59.31" North

Yellow Ellipse: 0.67 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 46.76% would have occurred within the yellow ellipse, i.e. within 0.67 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the yellow ellipse, should have been 46.76%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 21.76% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the yellow ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 22% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' resided within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than did Aaron Kosminski.

Red Dot (Smaller Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary

Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 52.22" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 8.12" North

Smaller Green Ellipse: 0.73 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 50.00% would have occurred within the smaller green ellipse, i.e. within 0.73 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the smaller green ellipse, should have been 50.00%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 23.54% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the smaller green ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 24% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' operated from within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than would Robert Mann have done, from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary.

Red Dot (Larger Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary

Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 50.14" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 14.66" North

Larger Green Ellipse: 0.94 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 60.88% would have occurred within the larger green ellipse, i.e. within 0.94 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the larger green ellipse, should have been 60.88%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 30.00% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the larger green ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 30% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' operated from within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than would Robert Mann have done, from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary.

Red Ellipse: 1.00 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

(63.68% / 31.84%)

If Trow has in fact, used some sort of 'geographic profile' to bolster his case against Robert Mann – not that any rational case can possibly be made against a man who was in all likelihood, held strictly accountable for his whereabouts, by the Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union – then it presumably accounts for the Alice McKenzie murder-site, which would shift the murder-site mean-center 41.50 yards to the southwest, i.e. away from both the mortuary and infirmary.

In any case; it is highly doubtful that any 'geographic profile' will suggest that Robert Mann was anything more than a 'viable' candidate.

"… it is highly doubtful that any 'geographic profile' will suggest that Robert Mann was anything more than a 'viable' candidate."

I haven't seen the documentary. Could you elaborate with regard to the 'geographic profile' portion of the broadcast?

[Chris]

String's posted some sort of wizzy link to the prog over on Forums

Thanks - that would be helpful. Unfortunately I can't see it, though. Could you give us a clue which thread it's on?

[Suzi]

String's posted some sort of wizzy link to the prog over on Forums
Suz x

[Chris]

Maybe you should see it in context first. If things are just taken in bits like the nails without seeing the full body, there is bound to be misunderstandings. I suggest you see this film yourself first rather than just picking up on bits and arranging it like an upside down jig-zaw puzzle.

No, I'm sorry, the original poster was entirely accurate when he said that Trow was suggesting "The bayonet killed her, and then Mann stabbed the body", and you were wrong to suggest otherwise. That is quite clear from the excerpt that's available on the Discovery Channel website.

The question of what weapon Mann is supposed to have used is a separate one, which hadn't been mentioned at all in the posts you were responding to.

[scarletpimpernel]

The original poster, with whom you were taking issue, was entirely accurate.

Chris,

Maybe you should see it in context first. If things are just taken in bits like the nails without seeing the full body, there is bound to be misunderstandings. I suggest you see this film yourself first rather than just picking up on bits and arranging it like an upside down jig-zaw puzzle.

[Suzi]

In that preview, is Trow really saying that the Wentworth Str. Arch is "all that's left of George Yard builings?"
If so: Ouch

C

Oooooh yes Christian!! And then we get to DuTTfields Yard!!......and Martha being found in the street!

[Chris]

Just a slight crossing of the cables here. Yes, you are right, at the beginning that is what the author said when he was talking about Mann's first victim, Martha Tabram, but afterwards.. Meir Trow asks if a post-mortem knife is a possibility ? and Dr. Peter Deen ( the present coroner for Whitechappel) comfirms it and says yes, that is a possibility.

The original poster, with whom you were taking issue, was entirely accurate.

[Uncle Jack]

I found Mann more likely than Tumblety!!

[scarletpimpernel]

I haven't seen the documentary, but in one of the excerpts on the Discovery Channel website ( http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/vi...ipper-suspect/ ) Trow says precisely that he believes that Mann found the dead body of Martha Tabram - indicated to have been killed by a dagger or bayonet - and stabbed the corpse with a clasp knife.

The point is that the suggestion that the numerous stab wounds were inflicted post mortem is contrary to the contemporary medical evidence.

Chris,

Just a slight crossing of the cables here. Yes, you are right, at the beginning that is what the author said when he was talking about Mann's first victim, Martha Tabram, but afterwards.. Meir Trow asks if a post-mortem knife is a possibility ? and Dr. Peter Deen ( the present coroner for Whitechappel) comfirms it and says yes, that is a possibility.

[GordonH]

The most obvious problem with the programme was that after all the hype about geographic profiling the suspect neither lived nor worked in either of the areas marked in red on the map!

[Chris]

I believe that's what Trow is saying. The bayonet killed her, and then Mann stabbed the body.

If he is saying that then Mr Trow should change his name to "Hans Christian Anderson"

About the bayonet. That is NOT what he is saying. What he contends is that a post-morten knife is a possibility and his particular theory was confirmed by the present pathologist of Whitechappel, Dr. Peter Deen on the show.

I haven't seen the documentary, but in one of the excerpts on the Discovery Channel website ( http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/vi...ipper-suspect/ ) Trow says precisely that he believes that Mann found the dead body of Martha Tabram - indicated to have been killed by a dagger or bayonet - and stabbed the corpse with a clasp knife.

The point is that the suggestion that the numerous stab wounds were inflicted post mortem is contrary to the contemporary medical evidence.

[Garuda]

I watched the documentary last night.

Its always nice to see the name of a new suspect being unearthed but I would have hoped for something of a theory to accompany it. However, It seems to me that Mr Trow has just picked a person almost at random.

The basis of Mr Trow's postulation appears to be that Mann lived in the area and his work in the mortuary meant that he might have picked up some anatomical knowledge. For me there was nothing compelling about the case for naming Robert Mann.

[Bob Hinton]

Unconvincing

Talk about forcing a theory into the facts. I thought the programme was guilty of some very misleading pronouncements, such as Tabrams body being found dead in the street (?) where Mann just thought to himself 'Oh here's a body I think I will mutilate to see if I get any thrill from it'

It was also not mentioned that Mann was one of two mortuary assistants from the Workhouse, the programme gave the distinct impression he was some sort of assistant to the doctor.

It also failed to mention that his evidence was dismissed as being unreliable possibly due to him being liable to 'fits'.

I just wish for once the programme makers would stick to the known facts and not alter everything to fit their pet theory.

To my mind any programme of this type has to include counter arguments, otherwise the viewing public is left with the distinct impression that what is shown is factual.

[dixon9]

well put together programme,but i would have liked him to explain how Robert Mann could just walk in and out of the workhouse.Also pretty sure i read somewhere the police had to go to workhouse to tell him Polly Nichols body was waiting for him at the mortuary.
Also the age factor,i believe they could have touched on the fact no 'eye witness' had 'Jacks' age over 50.
But all in all enjoyed the programme even though imo RM is way way down the list

Dixon9
very much still learning

[scarletpimpernel]

If he is saying that then Mr Trow should change his name to "Hans Christian Anderson"

About the bayonet. That is NOT what he is saying. What he contends is that a post-morten knife is a possibility and his particular theory was confirmed by the present pathologist of Whitechappel, Dr. Peter Deen on the show.