Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[Hunter]

I belive Mann was said to be epileptic, which was thought by many at the time to be a factor of criminal intent. Of course, we now know that theory was bogus. Mr. Trow evidently does not.

[Fisherman]

It is a very weak theory, Def, just as you have spotted. It would seem that the main reason for choosing Mann over Hatfield was that much as Mann was getting on agewise, Hatfield was even older and thus an even more incredible Ripper.

The best,
Fisherman

[Defective Detective]

I'm watching the documentary Jack the Ripper: New Evidence right now, and I'm not really that impressed by it. What, aside from the centrality of the mortuary to the murder sites, really makes Mann stand out from any other mortuary attendant in the area? If it's just that Polly Nichols' clothes were removed on her watch, what about the assistant who was with him when it happened? Why has he not been named as a suspect, to my knowledge? It's interesting, but it just feels weak to me.

[Hoxton Creeper]

I'll declare an interest..................

Mei Trow was my history teacher back in the 70s and whatever you may think of his writing, he was, is(?) a fine teacher, he brought the subject to life & is a great guy!

I read the book and found the theory plausible, maybe cos I know Mei, maybe because Mann is just so boringly ordinary.

I have other of Mei's books and from what I know, Craig & Bentley, Crime in Wartime London, he does take care with his research.

[sbanker31]

Thanks Hunter! I added them to the "New pic of Tumblety" thread if anyone is interested.Nothing earth shattering,but I just wanted to share them with everyone.

Thanks again,
Scott

[Hunter]

Welcome to the forum, Scott.

I can't help you with the handwriting question. I'm not certain that Mann could either read or write.

For posting images, this may help.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=157

Some people set up a Photobucket account and transfer images from there using the insert image icon at the top of your post construction board.

You must make sure your browser allows scripted windows. It should prompt you for that.

[sbanker31]

Hello! My name is Scott and I'm new to the board and a JtR newbie as well. Regardless of whether Mann did it or not,is there any known samples of his handwriting to compare with the "Dear Boss" or "From Hell" letters as done in the Letters From Hell book? I also wanted to submit some photos I took at Dr.Tumblety's Grave Site. I live in Rochester,and the Cemetery is only 10 minutes away from my house but I haven't been able to find a area to post/upload the pictures.

Thanks for your time,
Scott

[Jdombrowski89]

Ripperologist 113:

"Robert Mann – 'the non-starter'"

By Mei Trow

A most fitting title!



As serious students of the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; the editor at Ripperologist that approved this article for publication is also a non-starter!

"When you put forward a possible subject as Jack the Ripper — especially a new one as I did recently with the mortuary attendant Robert Mann — you must expect to get a bit of flak."

...

"The attack that galls me most is the dismissive 'non-starter' comment. Robert Mann, says more than one blogger, is a 'non-starter'. We have all met the real non-starters already: any member of the royal family or their coterie; any foreign sailor; anyone who has no known connection with Whitechapel; M J Druitt; Michael Ostrog; Aaron Kosminski; Severin Klosowski; etc etc. The weight of evidence against any of these being the Whitechapel murderer is so huge that there is no case to answer and it is astonishing that whole books have been written about them and that they still feature in television documentaries."

So, as suspects for having been 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; Montague Druitt and Aaron Kosminski are amongst the "real non-starters"? (my emphasis)

And the fact that "whole books have been written about them and that they still feature in television documentaries", is "astonishing"? (my emphasis)

.........

"There were an estimated 450,000 people living in the area in 1888. All the evidence points to the killer being local and being a man. That takes us down to 225,000. Interracial killing by sexual sadistic killers — such as black killing white and vice versa — is extremely rare. Since none of Jack's victims was Jewish, it is unlikely that Jack was a Jew. We know that the population of Whitechapel and Spitalfields was 90 per cent Jewish in 1888. We are therefore reduced to 22,500 non-Jewish males. Of these, an unknown percentage would be children or too old to commit physical crimes such as these. A reasonable assumption would take this number down to around 10,000; huge, of course, but not impossible for a modern police force to eliminate with the use of computers and house to house enquiries.

Once we have our 10,000 we can start to look for known names and search for profiles. …"

This is rudimentary, sophomoric, 'schoolboy' bullshit! It is the sort of garbage that is produced, when the responsibility for completing a man's job, is given to a boy; i.e. a non-starter!

Ripperologist: The Journal of Jack the Ripper, East End and Victorian Studies should be embarrassed!

"There were an estimated 450,000 people living in the area in 1888."

There can be little doubt that the figure "450,000" has been derived from the stated population of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, in accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891: 451,973.

I will demonstrate, when I am able to find the necessary amount of time for doing so (hopefully, within the next week -to- ten days); that the geographic parameters of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, in 1888, were most inappropriate for the defining the "area", as it relates to the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper'.

I will demonstrate the same, with regard to London's 'East End', of 1888; as well as the Whitechapel Registration District, of 1888.

I will, of course, propose a set of geographic parameters, for defining the "area", as it relates to the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper'; and justify an estimation of it having been populated by approximately 580,000 persons, in accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891, as well as Charles Booth survey data, of 1889.

"All the evidence points to the killer being local ..."

There is not one shred of evidence suggesting anything of the sort!

The location of the deposit of Catherine Eddowes's blood-stained apron is the only tangible evidence that could possibly be perceived as suggesting as much; but it fails to do so, as it provides the investigator with little more than a vector, i.e. a direction of regress, from Mitre Square. For all we know, Eddowes's murder was on his way back to Colchester, when he dropped the apron-piece in the doorway of 108-119 Wentworth Model Dwellings, Goulston Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel.

"Interracial killing by sexual sadistic killers — such as black killing white and vice versa — is extremely rare. Since none of Jack's victims was Jewish, ..."

Interaction between Britons / Anglo-Saxons of the British Isles (Aryans: i.e. Caucasoid), and either Sephardim of the Iberian Peninsula / Western Europe or Ashkenazim of Eastern Europe (Semites: i.e. also Caucasoid), cannot possibly be considered "interracial" (sic) (inter-racial). And it most certainly cannot be compared to interaction between Negroid and Caucasoid; i.e. 'blacks' and 'whites'.

"Since none of Jack's victims was Jewish, it is unlikely that Jack was a Jew."

Bullshit!

"We know that the population of Whitechapel and Spitalfields was 90 per cent Jewish in 1888."



Embarrassingly fallacious bullshit!

There can be no doubt that Mr. Trow plainly and simply pulled that one out of his aft end!

I will demonstrate, when I am able to find the necessary amount of time for doing so (again; hopefully, within the next week -to- ten days):

- That London's 'East End' (population, in accordance with the 1891 census: 705,114) was, almost certainly, no more than ten percent Jewish

- That the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets (population, in accordance with the 1891 census: 451,973) was, almost certainly, no more than fifteen percent Jewish

- That the Whitechapel Registration District (population, in accordance with the 1891 census: 74,462) was, almost certainly, no more than fifty percent Jewish

- That the actual "area", as it relates to the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' (estimated population, in accordance with the 1891 census and Charles Booth's survey data, of 1889: ~580,000) was, almost certainly, no more than ten-to-fifteen percent Jewish

"We are therefore reduced to 22,500 non-Jewish males."

I will continue at some point, which will hopefully be, within the next week -to- ten days.

In closing, for the time being; I will reiterate that as serious students of the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; M. J. Trow is a non-starter!

Again; Ripperologist: The Journal of Jack the Ripper, East End and Victorian Studies should be embarrassed, by this sophomoric, 'schoolboy' inclusion.

Couldn't agree more, mate.

Regards,
Justin

Ripperologist 113:

"Robert Mann – 'the non-starter'"

By Mei Trow

A most fitting title!

I have stated repeatedly, that as suspects for having been 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; Robert Mann is a non-starter.

Well, it is time to state that as serious students of the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; M. J. Trow is a non-starter!

As serious students of the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; the editor at Ripperologist that approved this article for publication is also a non-starter!

"When you put forward a possible subject as Jack the Ripper — especially a new one as I did recently with the mortuary attendant Robert Mann — you must expect to get a bit of flak."

...

"The attack that galls me most is the dismissive 'non-starter' comment. Robert Mann, says more than one blogger, is a 'non-starter'. We have all met the real non-starters already: any member of the royal family or their coterie; any foreign sailor; anyone who has no known connection with Whitechapel; M J Druitt; Michael Ostrog; Aaron Kosminski; Severin Klosowski; etc etc. The weight of evidence against any of these being the Whitechapel murderer is so huge that there is no case to answer and it is astonishing that whole books have been written about them and that they still feature in television documentaries."

So, as suspects for having been 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; Montague Druitt and Aaron Kosminski are amongst the "real non-starters"? (my emphasis)

And the fact that "whole books have been written about them and that they still feature in television documentaries", is "astonishing"? (my emphasis)

.........

"There were an estimated 450,000 people living in the area in 1888. All the evidence points to the killer being local and being a man. That takes us down to 225,000. Interracial killing by sexual sadistic killers — such as black killing white and vice versa — is extremely rare. Since none of Jack's victims was Jewish, it is unlikely that Jack was a Jew. We know that the population of Whitechapel and Spitalfields was 90 per cent Jewish in 1888. We are therefore reduced to 22,500 non-Jewish males. Of these, an unknown percentage would be children or too old to commit physical crimes such as these. A reasonable assumption would take this number down to around 10,000; huge, of course, but not impossible for a modern police force to eliminate with the use of computers and house to house enquiries.

Once we have our 10,000 we can start to look for known names and search for profiles. …"

This is rudimentary, sophomoric, 'schoolboy' bullshit! It is the sort of garbage that is produced, when the responsibility for completing a man's job, is given to a boy; i.e. a non-starter!

Ripperologist: The Journal of Jack the Ripper, East End and Victorian Studies should be embarrassed!

"There were an estimated 450,000 people living in the area in 1888."

There can be little doubt that the figure "450,000" has been derived from the stated population of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, in accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891: 451,973.

I will demonstrate, when I am able to find the necessary amount of time for doing so (hopefully, within the next week -to- ten days); that the geographic parameters of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, in 1888, were most inappropriate for the defining the "area", as it relates to the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper'.

I will demonstrate the same, with regard to London's 'East End', of 1888; as well as the Whitechapel Registration District, of 1888.

I will, of course, propose a set of geographic parameters, for defining the "area", as it relates to the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper'; and justify an estimation of it having been populated by approximately 580,000 persons, in accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891, as well as Charles Booth survey data, of 1889.

"All the evidence points to the killer being local ..."

There is not one shred of evidence suggesting anything of the sort!

The location of the deposit of Catherine Eddowes's blood-stained apron is the only tangible evidence that could possibly be perceived as suggesting as much; but it fails to do so, as it provides the investigator with little more than a vector, i.e. a direction of regress, from Mitre Square. For all we know, Eddowes's murder was on his way back to Colchester, when he dropped the apron-piece in the doorway of 108-119 Wentworth Model Dwellings, Goulston Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel.

"Interracial killing by sexual sadistic killers — such as black killing white and vice versa — is extremely rare. Since none of Jack's victims was Jewish, ..."

Interaction between Britons / Anglo-Saxons of the British Isles (Aryans: i.e. Caucasoid), and either Sephardim of the Iberian Peninsula / Western Europe or Ashkenazim of Eastern Europe (Semites: i.e. also Caucasoid), cannot possibly be considered "interracial" (sic) (inter-racial). And it most certainly cannot be compared to interaction between Negroid and Caucasoid; i.e. 'blacks' and 'whites'.

"Since none of Jack's victims was Jewish, it is unlikely that Jack was a Jew."

Bullshit!

"We know that the population of Whitechapel and Spitalfields was 90 per cent Jewish in 1888."



Embarrassingly fallacious bullshit!

There can be no doubt that Mr. Trow plainly and simply pulled that one out of his aft end!

I will demonstrate, when I am able to find the necessary amount of time for doing so (again; hopefully, within the next week -to- ten days):

- That London's 'East End' (population, in accordance with the 1891 census: 705,114) was, almost certainly, no more than ten percent Jewish

- That the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets (population, in accordance with the 1891 census: 451,973) was, almost certainly, no more than fifteen percent Jewish

- That the Whitechapel Registration District (population, in accordance with the 1891 census: 74,462) was, almost certainly, no more than fifty percent Jewish

- That the actual "area", as it relates to the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' (estimated population, in accordance with the 1891 census and Charles Booth's survey data, of 1889: ~580,000) was, almost certainly, no more than ten-to-fifteen percent Jewish

"We are therefore reduced to 22,500 non-Jewish males."

I will continue at some point, which will hopefully be, within the next week -to- ten days.

In closing, for the time being; I will reiterate that as serious students of the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; M. J. Trow is a non-starter!

Again; Ripperologist: The Journal of Jack the Ripper, East End and Victorian Studies should be embarrassed, by this sophomoric, 'schoolboy' inclusion.

"For me, this is absolutely fascinating, because the mortuary attendant, Robert Mann, was born just here. … In Hope Street! It's, it's just there! It's very much within that central area that you have profiled as being his killing zone."

M. J. Trow discussing the Geographic Profile that was conducted for the Discovery Channel documentary "Jack the Ripper: Killer Revealed".

As he points to the general area, in which 'Hope Street' was situated; the television perspective changes from a profile depiction, based on a modern underlying map, to one that is based on the 1894 Ordnance Survey. At this point, Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel*, is clearly visible within the vicinity, to which Mr. Trow has drawn the attention of the Geographic Profiler, with whom he is speaking.

* Why bother with the parochial distinction 'Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel', when referring to Hope Street, in this particular instance?

After all, …

Does anybody here think that the Ripper (whether they were Bury or not) gave even a moment's consideration to parish boundaries or the exact definition of the area they committed the murders in?

I can't see it myself.

… such things are really of no relevance; are they?


Geographic Profile: "Jack the Ripper: Quest for a Killer", by M. J. Trow; Page 191 (Click to Enlarge in flickr)

My Color-Shadings

Red (Top-to-Bottom / Left-to-Right):
Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel

Now, which of the two do we think might have been the early childhood home of Robert Mann?

"The census of 1841 shows the Mann family living in Hope Street, Whitechapel, on the edge of the focus of Jack's activities, as outlined by geo-profiler Spencer Chainey."

"Jack the Ripper: Quest for a Killer", by M. J. Trow; Page 187

Clearly, Mr. Trow thinks he has the answer!

Let's see for ourselves; shall we?

Census of England & Wales, 1841
County: Middlesex
Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: Christ Church Spitalfields
Registration Sub-District: Spitalfields
Enumeration District: 2
Enumeration Schedules: 36 – 42
Pages: 17 – 29
Hope Street: House Numbers not Delineated; 296 Total Residents …


Census of England & Wales, 1841: Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, County of Middlesex (Click to Enlarge in flickr)

…

Enumeration Schedule: 40
Pages: 25, 26
- Robert Mann; 50; Silk Weaver
- Elizabeth Mann; 46
- Amelia Mann; 7
- Robert Mann; 5

…

Census of England & Wales, 1841
County: Middlesex
Registration District: Whitechapel
Civil Parish: St. Mary Whitechapel
Registration Sub-District: Mile End New Town
Enumeration District: 1
Enumeration Schedules: 18, 19
Pages: 27 – 29
Hope Street: House Numbers not Delineated; 46 Total Residents …

…

None by the name of 'Mann'

…


Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields; and Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

Red w/ Gold Outline (Top-to-Bottom / Left-to-Right):
- Hope Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- Hope Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel

Red w/ Green/White Outline (Bottom-to-Top / Left-to-Right):
- Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary, Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town

No less than a book and television documentary devoted to this non-starter, Robert Mann; and the folks who put it all together cannot even track down his early childhood home and possible place of birth.

Mr. Trow should have referred to the 1873 Ordnance Survey, rather than the 1894 series of the same. He wouldn't have needed John Bennett's fancy Goad Fire Insurance Survey (Provided, Courtesy of Robert Clack) to locate Eagle Place, Hamlet of Mile End New Town; and he might have noticed that there were at least two thoroughfares named 'Hope Street' in the Whitechapel Registration District: One of them being clearly situated within the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, and the other being well within the boundaries of the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields.

There are some other mistakes in Mr. Trow's book that I will very eagerly address, when I am able to find the necessary amount of time:

- He suggests that the immediate vicinity of the murders, which he refers to as the 'Abyss' and the 'Ghetto', was populated in 1888, by some "450,000 lost souls"; and that ninety percent were Jewish.

Rest assured that nothing less than the entire Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets was populated by 450,000 persons, in 1888; and that no more than forty percent would have been rightfully described as "lost souls".

Also, rest assured that the proportion of Jews-to-Gentiles, in the Whitechapel Registration District, in 1888, was no more than one-to-one; and that I will show good reason for believing as much.

Mr. Trow makes countless other mistakes throughout the course of his book, but admittedly, most of them are quite trivial. However, the manner, in which he justifies his presumptions that Robert Mann was able to come-and-go from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, in 1888, is sophomoric, at best; and I will surely have more to say about it.

I have stated repeatedly, that as suspects for having been 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; Robert Mann is a non-starter.

Well, it is time to state that as serious students of the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper' are concerned; M. J. Trow is a non-starter!

The workhouses were awful but it should be noted that by 1888 the workhouses had changed a lot from the 1834 guidelines. Scandals such as the Andover Scandal made people very aware of the issues of the workhouses and riots in the north of England in places like Bradford were enough to scare the governement in to making chnages to the Poor Laws so as to avoid revolution. The idea of the Principle of Less Eligibility was the corner stone of the Poor Law but was also the thing which people were quickest to protest about.
The Workhouse often adapted to suit the economic climate of the local area. It is interesting to note that they list outdoor reliefe poor. This was supposed to have ended, after the 1834 Poor Law act no one was eligable for outdoor relief, and yet here it is. The Casual Wards of many of the city workshouses which had been intended for vagrants were now used in a very different kind of way. It is also important to note that the London Unions were unlike any other Poor Law Unions due to their immense size.

"… it should be noted that by 1888 the workhouses had changed a lot from the 1834 guidelines."

That Poor Law Parishes/Unions were functioning with a certain degree of autonomy, in the latter portion of the nineteenth century; and that in most instances, adherence to the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834, was not as strict as was the case, in earlier decades; … would seem to be widely accepted.

But here, …

And further, Harkness says...

...

The Whitechapel Union is a model workhouse; that is to say it is the Poor Law Incarnate in stone and brickwork. ... The young people never go out, never see a visitor, and the old only get one holiday in the month. Then the aged paupers may be seen skipping like lambkins outside the doors of the Bastille, while they jabber to their friends and relatives.

… we have a very specific reference, to what would appear to be a particularly rigid adherence to the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834, - as well as the Poor Law Commission Consolidated General Order 1847, and its applicable guidelines for the administration of 'Poor Relief' facilities (i.e. workhouses, infirmaries, and casual wards).

Even in light of the fact that this reference comes from a novelist, whose socialist inclinations might have compelled her to exaggerate the horrors of workhouse life; it would appear that the Board of Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union ran a 'tight ship', in 1888.

Again; …

… it would appear that the Board of Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union ran a 'tight ship', in 1888.

I have already conceded that Robert Mann, as a nearly 'womb-to-tomb' ward - and perhaps long-term faithful servant - of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union, might have been granted some sort of 'passage', with which he was able to occasionally come-and-go from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary. But the notion that he would have been granted such 'passage' between the hours of midnight and 6:00AM is utterly preposterous. That is as far as I am willing to bend.

Until Mr. Trow can sufficiently address this issue, with specific references to the manner, in which confinement was administered in the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, in 1888; Robert Mann's supposed 'candidacy' will remain an outright impossibility!

.........

[Monstrosity]

Robert Mann does not work on a number of levels. For a start if you look at the case presented by Trow it falls down as soon as you ask the question ‘Why do you not suspect the other mortuary attendant who worked alongside Mann?’
All the reasons you give for Mann equally fits the other chap.
In Trows other Ripper book which was published in 1997 I don’t believe he even considers Mann to be a suspect. Why not? All the information he now presents to support his theory was available then.
Now if you look at Mann himself, the first thing that crops up is that he is simply too old. The person who made those mutilations was suffering from some form of advanced mental problem. This would have manifested itself long before a person reaches the age of 50. This is one reason why most of the sadistic, mutilating type of killer seems to fit the age range 25-35.
Trying to add McKenzie to the tally is simply nonsense. It is obvious that the person who killed her wanted it to appear like a ripper killing, but couldn’t actually go through with the mutilations. The reason for this given by Trow, illness, simply doesn’t compute. If Mann was too weak to slice someone in 1889, how come he lasted another six or seven years?
He also reverses himself in the case of the Kelly murder. Trow states that his aim was to murder someone in a place where he could spend a lot of time on the mutilations. Why then after Kelly does he revert to killing on the street where such opportunity is severely curtailed?
It just doesn’t make sense.

I am a n00b but mostly agree with this post although the fact that Mann was over 50 is misleading. How old was Albert Fish before he was caught? Also on another note the idea of the killings stopping does not necessarily mean anything either. How long did BTK go without killing anyone? I think profiles are useful but often wrong. Gary Ridgway killed more prostitutes than JTR was married for 14 years and was said to be a "wonderful husband." So the idea of a lone wolf serial killer is often wrong.

[lynn cates]

popular imagination

Hello John. Quite right. Sad but true.

The best.
LC

[John Bennett]

Just a little snippet from the 'front' as it were:

As a little experiment, I always ask my tour groups how many victims they think JTR had. More often than not the answer is 5 or 6 with some wilder variations scattered about (30, 120 etc). This you would expect from a random collection of curious folk.

In the last few weeks, lots of people have been saying 7 and several admit to having seen the Mann documentary.

This, I believe, is a neat example of how theories presented in the mass media can percolate into general thinking on the case. It's happened before and will undoubtably happen many times in the future.

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello Scarlet. Not to mention D'Onston, the chap with the gammy leg.

The best.
LC

Lynn,

Last seen hopping away from the scene..