Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[GordonH]

The most obvious problem with the programme was that after all the hype about geographic profiling the suspect neither lived nor worked in either of the areas marked in red on the map!

[scarletpimpernel]

I haven't seen the documentary, but in one of the excerpts on the Discovery Channel website ( http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/vi...ipper-suspect/ ) Trow says precisely that he believes that Mann found the dead body of Martha Tabram - indicated to have been killed by a dagger or bayonet - and stabbed the corpse with a clasp knife.

The point is that the suggestion that the numerous stab wounds were inflicted post mortem is contrary to the contemporary medical evidence.

Chris,

Just a slight crossing of the cables here. Yes, you are right, at the beginning that is what the author said when he was talking about Mann's first victim, Martha Tabram, but afterwards.. Meir Trow asks if a post-mortem knife is a possibility ? and Dr. Peter Deen ( the present coroner for Whitechappel) comfirms it and says yes, that is a possibility.

[Uncle Jack]

I found Mann more likely than Tumblety!!

[Chris]

Just a slight crossing of the cables here. Yes, you are right, at the beginning that is what the author said when he was talking about Mann's first victim, Martha Tabram, but afterwards.. Meir Trow asks if a post-mortem knife is a possibility ? and Dr. Peter Deen ( the present coroner for Whitechappel) comfirms it and says yes, that is a possibility.

The original poster, with whom you were taking issue, was entirely accurate.

[Suzi]

In that preview, is Trow really saying that the Wentworth Str. Arch is "all that's left of George Yard builings?"
If so: Ouch

C

Oooooh yes Christian!! And then we get to DuTTfields Yard!!......and Martha being found in the street!

[scarletpimpernel]

The original poster, with whom you were taking issue, was entirely accurate.

Chris,

Maybe you should see it in context first. If things are just taken in bits like the nails without seeing the full body, there is bound to be misunderstandings. I suggest you see this film yourself first rather than just picking up on bits and arranging it like an upside down jig-zaw puzzle.

[Chris]

Maybe you should see it in context first. If things are just taken in bits like the nails without seeing the full body, there is bound to be misunderstandings. I suggest you see this film yourself first rather than just picking up on bits and arranging it like an upside down jig-zaw puzzle.

No, I'm sorry, the original poster was entirely accurate when he said that Trow was suggesting "The bayonet killed her, and then Mann stabbed the body", and you were wrong to suggest otherwise. That is quite clear from the excerpt that's available on the Discovery Channel website.

The question of what weapon Mann is supposed to have used is a separate one, which hadn't been mentioned at all in the posts you were responding to.

[Suzi]

String's posted some sort of wizzy link to the prog over on Forums
Suz x

[Chris]

String's posted some sort of wizzy link to the prog over on Forums

Thanks - that would be helpful. Unfortunately I can't see it, though. Could you give us a clue which thread it's on?

[Septic Blue]

The most obvious problem with the programme was that after all the hype about geographic profiling the suspect neither lived nor worked in either of the areas marked in red on the map!

[ATTACH]6791[/ATTACH]
Figure 10: Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Elliptical Perspective): Aaron Kosminski; Robert Mann (Mortuary); Robert Mann (Union Infirmary) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Red Dot (Yellow Ellipse): Possible 1888 Residence of Aaron Kosminski

34 Yalford Street, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 56.79" West
Latitude: 51° 30' 59.31" North

Yellow Ellipse: 0.67 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 46.76% would have occurred within the yellow ellipse, i.e. within 0.67 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the yellow ellipse, should have been 46.76%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 21.76% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the yellow ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 22% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' resided within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than did Aaron Kosminski.

Red Dot (Smaller Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary

Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 52.22" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 8.12" North

Smaller Green Ellipse: 0.73 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 50.00% would have occurred within the smaller green ellipse, i.e. within 0.73 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the smaller green ellipse, should have been 50.00%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 23.54% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the smaller green ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 24% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' operated from within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than would Robert Mann have done, from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary.

Red Dot (Larger Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary

Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 50.14" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 14.66" North

Larger Green Ellipse: 0.94 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

Were this series of murders to have continued ad infinitum, the expectation would be that 60.88% would have occurred within the larger green ellipse, i.e. within 0.94 'Standard Deviations' of the murder-site 'Mean-Center' (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of any impending subsequent murder occurring within the larger green ellipse, should have been 60.88%.

Also; the 'geographic profile' model would suggest a 30.00% probability that the perpetrator had thus far operated from within the larger green ellipse. Thus suggesting that there was merely a 30% 'likelihood' that 'Jack the Ripper' operated from within less 'elliptical deviation' from the murder-site mean-center, than would Robert Mann have done, from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary.

Red Ellipse: 1.00 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

(63.68% / 31.84%)

If Trow has in fact, used some sort of 'geographic profile' to bolster his case against Robert Mann – not that any rational case can possibly be made against a man who was in all likelihood, held strictly accountable for his whereabouts, by the Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union – then it presumably accounts for the Alice McKenzie murder-site, which would shift the murder-site mean-center 41.50 yards to the southwest, i.e. away from both the mortuary and infirmary.

In any case; it is highly doubtful that any 'geographic profile' will suggest that Robert Mann was anything more than a 'viable' candidate.

"… it is highly doubtful that any 'geographic profile' will suggest that Robert Mann was anything more than a 'viable' candidate."

I haven't seen the documentary. Could you elaborate with regard to the 'geographic profile' portion of the broadcast?

[Suzi]

Hi Chris-
It's on String's Individual forum 'Strings'- 'Jack the Rpper:Killer Revealed'

[Septic Blue]

In that preview, is Trow really saying that the Wentworth Str. Arch is "all that's left of George Yard builings?"

Perhaps Philip Hutchinson should step aside, and allow Mr. Trow to conduct the tour, at the upcoming Conference.

[Chris]

Hi Chris-
It's on String's Individual forum 'Strings'- 'Jack the Rpper:Killer Revealed'

Ah - that explains why I couldn't find it. Apparently it's visible to members only. Never mind.

[scarletpimpernel]

No, I'm sorry, the original poster was entirely accurate when he said that Trow was suggesting "The bayonet killed her, and then Mann stabbed the body", and you were wrong to suggest otherwise. That is quite clear from the excerpt that's available on the Discovery Channel website.

The question of what weapon Mann is supposed to have used is a separate one, which hadn't been mentioned at all in the posts you were responding to.

Chris,

As I said before. I thought the other poster was saying that the murder weapon in all the killings was a bayonet and I was surprised about that, since the murder weapon that Meir Trow is proposing is a post-mortem knife and Dr. Peter Deen, coroner for Whitechapel confirmed his theory he said yes, that a post mortem knife is a possibility. Now then, this is an expert opinion and not one that can be put aside or ignored. Try to relax, getting all worked up, won't do anything for your health.

[Chris]

As I said before. I thought the other poster was saying that the murder weapon in all the killings was a bayonet ...

Yes, clearly you misunderstood what the other poster had said. The purpose of my posts has been to try to clarify the resulting confusion - that's all.