Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[Trevor Marriott]

Sam
On a more serious note the comparision you have tried to use with regards to the removal of the organs for Chapman and Eddowes is a non starter.

The example of the burglary and the different scenarios is not even applicable. The house is an immovable object for a start. It cannot be disputed that whoever broke the window did so at that location. Furthermore if property was stolen it cannot be disputed that it was stolen from that house. So all in all it is fair to say whatever happened was at that location and couldnt have been anywhere else

In relation to the removal of the organs the bodies were moveable objects so anyhting removed from them could have occurred anywhere !

[Admin]

Mei Trow has contacted Casebook and said that he is NOT Moriarty.

Posters are reminded once again to not make accusations against other posters that you cannot substantiate.



Thank you.

[Stewart P Evans]

Asked

Mei Trow has contacted Casebook and said that he is NOT Moriarty.
Posters are reminded once again to not make accusations against other posters that you cannot substantiate.
Thank you.

For my part I only asked, "You are not Mei Trow - are you?", followed by the remark that Mei was a schoolteacher. In his reply 'Moriarty' stated he was an ex-policeman which, I would have thought, answered my question in the negative.

[John Bennett]

Just thought I'd pop this one in, post-conference, noticing that some posts had gone from 'theory-bashing' (fair enough) to perhaps a bit 'personal'.

Although Mei was not giving a talk about his recent theory/book/documentary, I think anybody who went to the conference will agree that he gave a good account of himself with the few questions that were put his way regarding it.

As Stewart has said, he is a smashing fellow and that came across in his good-humoured approach to the Mann theory on Saturday afternoon. But what was important was that he stated that he doesn't believe he has found JTR. It is just another theory (and doubtless there will be many others to follow).

He also made a point of highlighting the differences inherent in the content of a book and tie-in TV documentary and although the TV show was well made, it cannot do the subject justice in one hour, plus adverts, plus recaps, plus eye-catching visuals, Tom cobbly and all. Mei also mentioned that the promo material said that he had discovered new victims when he (and everybody sitting in front of him) knew that wasn't so.

Mei's theory has been criticised by many on the two main forums (and that is the way of things in suspect-based Ripperology as I guess it will always be) - he knew that was going to happen, 'cos he ain't that daft!

It's a funny old world!

[Brad]

Even thoughI'm listed asa newbie, Ive been here for 10 years. I greatly respect SPE even though we have disagreed in the old chat room about Dr. T . I agree with him that profiling is crap. As far as Man being JTR forget it. A mortuary attendandt would remove a kidney from the rear, the easiest way. A docter would go in from the front, so as not to sever any spinal nerves. Even today cancerous kidney removal and spinal disk replacement is done from the front, displacing the intestines and other organs. Since we're the same age Stewart, and both got intteresred in 1961, do I get a discount in joining thje old farts club?

[Sam Flynn]

A mortuary attendandt would remove a kidney from the rear, the easiest way.

That's assuming the mortuary attendant actually "knew" that it was the easiest way, Brad, and further assumes that mortuary attendants are uniformly knowledgeable or even "skilled" in such things. However, I see no reason why any of these assumptions should be true. For one thing, it seems that the likes of Mann were given rather menial duties to get on with, e.g. divesting/washing corpses, fetching and carrying for the surgeon etc. For another, I doubt that Mann and co would have seen too many "operations" where the kidney would have been carefully removed from the side - such an approach would appear somewhat redundant if the "patient" were lying opened up on a mortuary slab at the time.

[scarletpimpernel]

Radical Joe,

I find your comments and findings very interesting.

" Sick patients, because they were not subject to the deterrent rules, were not always put into:
WORKHOUSE UNIFORM

So if they were not put into workhouse uniform this means they could go out into the community and not have the tell-tale striped lines and this way, go un-noticed as any member of the public. That is interesting too.

[Chris]

" Sick patients, because they were not subject to the deterrent rules, were not always put into:
WORKHOUSE UNIFORM

So if they were not put into workhouse uniform this means they could go out into the community and not have the tell-tale striped lines and this way, go un-noticed as any member of the public. That is interesting too.

We know that Mann wore workhouse uniform, because that is stated in press reports of his inquest testimony.

[scarletpimpernel]

Thank you Chris. Does it say how does the uniform look like ?

[Phil Carter]

Robert Mann, according to Mei Trow, historian, is the latest documentary offering as a JTR suspect for our small screens.
The recently announced Discovery Channel programme, clips of which are available on the web, reveals a new suspect... One whom the programme claims researchers have somehow missed over the years of trawling through archive after archive. The mortuary attendant, "a sufferer of fits" whose testimony is "unreliable" according to Coroner Wynne Baxter, after instructing the jurers of the Nichols inquest to disregard Mann's testimony, apparently fits the "type" of person that could have comitted these crimes.
This discrepancy regarding Mann's instructions as to what to do, or not, was raised in connection with James Hatfield, a witness at the Nichols inquest, who assisted Mann in stripping the body ready for laying out. It seems, to cut a long story short, that Wynne Baxter was far happier with Hatfield's testimony than Mann's, even though Hatfield, in balancing the "weaknesses" of the two mortuary attendants, said that Hatfield had already admitted to having a poor memory.... yet better that than having fits and being unreliable when giving testimony at an inquest it seems.
The documentary also claims that Martha Tabram was certainly Mann's first victim.
As to conclusions, proof etc etc, the researchers amongst us will no doubt either prove or disprove this new theory in a very short time, within days of all having seen the programme. Am uncertain here, but I believe it is to be screened on Nov 7th.

As for me, I am left with two very strong feelings.
1) I have the feeling that here we have the never ending "trying to fit the theory to the fact" situation, without significant solid proof.
2) The weight leaning on the fact that according to Trow, all the "experts" have missed this suspect, tastes, I am sorry to say, as if anyone could flick through the pages of the "A-Z", and pick a name not yet investigated. Almost challenge like, in fact.
One might as well point the finger at George Morris.
If that sounds rude, I apologise, but let's be honest here... we ALL would love to FINALLY put the definitive name to JTR, and find out all the reasons, all the background the Modus Operandi... we all want to get this sorted once and for all with certainty.
I really WOULD like to see the solution totally revealed and all other theories quashed once and for all...and should it be that Mann is proven with evidence to have actually been there, done it and bought the t-shirt, I will bow greatly in deep debt of honour to Mr. Trow, of whom, I may add, I respect. but Robert Mann?...hmmmm seems to me to be a case of.. we haven't looked into this one, what can we fit into HIS profile? Or does his profile fit? Perhaps I have become TOO cynical, after all these years.

Mr. Evans, again, you have hit the nail on the head... and I am tempted to add that the way back to the feeling of Sooty the gloved puppet being given the label of suspect, comes ever nearer. Surely we don't have to go back to those days again? I thought we were seriously past this.

General bitching agreed with. Old Farts dept, Norway. (1 member)

[scarletpimpernel]

A mystery without solution

Phil,

You must know that this is going to remain without solution, since the murderer was never caught. None of the books give a good explanation how the murderer escaped with what must have been a very bloody deed. When a person's throat is slashed, the heart is still pumping and blood is spattered everywhere, yet the murderer seems to have escaped unnoticed by anyone, just the victims bodies lying at the scene of the crime. Stryde's body was still warm when she was found. Where did the murderer successfully hid himself so quickly shortly after murdering this woman ? we will never know...

[John Bennett]

Robert Mann, according to Mei Trow, historian, is the latest documentary offering as a JTR suspect for our small screens.
The recently announced Discovery Channel programme, clips of which are available on the web, reveals a new suspect...

As to conclusions, proof etc etc, the researchers amongst us will no doubt either prove or disprove this new theory in a very short time, within days of all having seen the programme. Am uncertain here, but I believe it is to be screened on Nov 7th.

Phil

As you appear to be in Norway at the moment, I assume that the documentary is only now being screened outside the UK. Over here it was broadcast on 11 October and again 2 days later. The book came out on the 16th October.

Regards
JB

[Phil Carter]

Scarlet, John
Thank you for your replies.

The plain fact is that I have been off sick a while, and have completely missed this book. Having seen the trailers on the net, I did a quick piece of catching up. I apologise for the seemingly hurried and unknowing response.

As regard will we ever find out the truth.. probably not. But there is so much to be gained from the last 25 years or so.. and the knowledge we NOW posess tells me that there is always a chance of uncovering something from somewhere. SPE correctly points out, this case has it's valleys, peaks and troughs.. and at quiet times, when SO MUCH previously has been discovered, traced, searched for and found, at times all in a rush from many directions. Expectation takes hold.
It is that fact that keeps me from becoming totally cynical, and my mind open to possibilities.
The trail has gone cold for a while, yes, and at those times people DO pop up and revert back to "theory to fit" method.

best wishes

Phil

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello Phil,

Naturally all authors would like their suspects to fit, otherwise there wouldn't be any point in writing a book.

[scarletpimpernel]

I fail to see how Robert Mann is a suspect - there is not a jot of evidence, nor a contemporary allegation, to suggest such a thing. The FBI profile is worthless. Local butchers, and many other locals, were looked at in 1888 as suspects. I don't know where you get the idea that they weren't. We are all aware of the mortuary attendants who gave inquest evidence. All the victims did not end up on 'his slab.' Modern theorists have consdidered local suspects. I really don't know where some people get their ideas from.

I somehow missed this one.

Just because Mann was not mentioned as a suspect doesn't mean that he has to be innocent. It is arrogant to say so. You only have to see as it says above, that inmates in workhouses " were not ALWAYS put into workhouse uniforms. Now, take a look at the thread where they are discussing about the mortuary attendants attire and you will see from the photographs of that era that mortuary attendants wore clothing similar to a gentleman with hats and all. Couldn't it be possible that Robert Mann on those occassions was wearing his mortuary attire rather than the workhouse's ?