mann

[perrymason]

The workhouse connection puts him completely of the frame. To spell it out again.
The only people admitted to workhouses, apart from the old and sick, were paupers. People with no money, no income, and no work. Although in 1881 census Mann was described as a dock labourer, pauper, all that means is that some time in the past he had been a casual labourer at the docks, but had not worked for a while.
Once in the workhouse, EVERY INMATE HAD TO WORK, unless they were seriously ill. They were given all kinds of jobs from picking oakam, breaking stones, cleaning,working in the kitchens, laundry or mortuary attendant. Mann was NOT a member of staff because he worked in the mortuary. It was an unpleasent job, probably given to Mann, because he had been in workhouses a long time,was a bit simple, and undisturbed by the atmosphere.
The inmates wore uniform.they were sent to the workhouse for fixed periods sometimes years.The men and women were in seperate dormatories, lights out, locked in at night.
Families were seperated, childen seperated from parents, given a basic education, that did not include literacy. The food was gruel, broth a bit cheese. The rules were harsh, the existence monontonous.Things had not changed much from the days of Dicken's Oliver Twist
Ending in the workhouse was the dread of every working class person, they were feared.
They designed to punish the poor, the thinking being if they were bad enough, the poor would avoid falling into pauperism.
The idea that a workhouse pauper is hanging out in pubs picking up prostitutes is up there with some of the wilder JR theories.
Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple,

I think the 2 parts I highlighted may have exceptions....and case in point is Kate Eddowes experiences. If she hawked the boots on Friday night like the slip states, not Saturday morning, then she would have had some money on her that night....but according to the story, she is accepted into a workhouse. Also according to the story of her last full night, she meets with Kelly for breakfast around 8:30am......something that could not happen from a work house, she would... as you say.... be compelled to do that work before she is discharged. Traditionally, the poor came in at night and did those chores in the morning. Yet Kate was out by 8am.

I have no opinion on Mann as a suspect, I dont know enough about the case against him or the man himself, but if the above was the truth...then there were ways to either avoid the chores or gain entry while having some doss on your person. Maybe they just took the money, like I understand they did with anything the paupers had on them.

Best regards Miss Marple

[Radical Joe]

Joe,its on again Wednesday at 10pm (discovery channel 520sky)

Thanks for that.

[miss marple]

Casual ward

Hi Michael,
Kate Eddowes did not go to a workhouse, but to a Casual Ward, slightly different Notice the name, casual,they opened at 6 in morning you had to work or you were kept in, you could get bath, bed. but you could leave once you had done the work, it was voluntary.
The workhouse was closer to prison,with strict poor law regulations, people could be sent there and stay for years.
Cheers Miss Marple

[lynn cates]

older model of Jack

Hello. It seems to me that if one can overcome the work house logistics regarding coming and going, one could overcome the age aspect of Mann by reverting to the pre-punter models of Jack where he comes out of the shadows suddenly. This is about the only way to explain the eyewitness accounts of Jack as a younger man--they were all someone else.

Of course, there would be a great difficulty in the case of Eddowes.

Cheers.
LC

[Septic Blue]

I think it has to be said that - in the absence of any suggestion as to how he could have got out of the workhouse at night - he actually has an alibi for all the murders. I'm really not sure there's much point in discussing the other problems until that one has been dealt with.

"... it has to be said ..."

Indeed it does!

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi Miss Marple,

I think the 2 parts I highlighted may have exceptions....and case in point is Kate Eddowes experiences. If she hawked the boots on Friday night like the slip states, not Saturday morning, then she would have had some money on her that night....but according to the story, she is accepted into a workhouse. Also according to the story of her last full night, she meets with Kelly for breakfast around 8:30am......something that could not happen from a work house, she would... as you say.... be compelled to do that work before she is discharged. Traditionally, the poor came in at night and did those chores in the morning. Yet Kate was out by 8am.

I have no opinion on Mann as a suspect, I dont know enough about the case against him or the man himself, but if the above was the truth...then there were ways to either avoid the chores or gain entry while having some doss on your person. Maybe they just took the money, like I understand they did with anything the paupers had on them.

Best regards Miss Marple

Perrymason,

It is good to have an open mind based on solid knowledge of what is possible in relation to how workhouses operated and how Kate was out at 8 A.M. shows that it was possible to go out this early. It also shows that the rules were not set in stone.

[Chris]

It is good to have an open mind based on solid knowledge of what is possible in relation to how workhouses operated and how Kate was out at 8 A.M. shows that it was possible to go out this early. It also shows that the rules were not set in stone.

As has already been pointed out, Eddowes was apparently in the casual ward - she wasn't an inmate of the workhouse, as Mann was.

According to the Times report of John Kelly's inquest testimony, the reason she left the casual ward so early was that she was thrown out of it:
When he saw her so early on the Saturday morning she told him that there had been some bother at the casual ward, and that that was why she had been turned out so soon.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881005.html