mann

[Chris]

Yup, Trow's going to need to pull a few sure-fire rabbits from the hat.

Indeed. Another problem for the theory is that even if Mann had managed somehow to escape from the workhouse during the night, his workhouse uniform would have made him very conspicuous, and presumably liable to be arrested by any policeman who saw him. And of course none of the witnesses describes anyone resembling "an old man in workhouse uniform" near any of the murder sites.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18880918.html

[claire]

couldn't possibly comment

Yup, Trow's going to need to pull a few sure-fire rabbits from the hat. And if he had them, my bet is he would have made sure the papers got a look at them. Then again, they probably figured he was a genius for suggesting it was most likely a working class local, so didn't probe.

[Radical Joe]

...sorry, was replying too quickly on a slow browser, so didn't mean to be rude

Anyhow, the other reason is that, the sooner people can dismiss new theories, the sooner they can get back to nursing their own pet ideas...! Heheh.

No probs, you didn't come across as rude anyway - I've seen much worse on here when trawling through various threads. Who would've thought a seemingly mundane question about George Hutchinson's signature could descend into out and out abuse?! And let's not even talk about the Maybrick threads.

Also, I think your other reason has more going for it than a lot of folk on here would like to admit.

*Controversial*

[claire]

...sorry, was replying too quickly on a slow browser, so didn't mean to be rude

Anyhow, the other reason is that, the sooner people can dismiss new theories, the sooner they can get back to nursing their own pet ideas...! Heheh.

[Radical Joe]

'idiocy could not have supplied two more incapable men'...marvellous.

excellent stuff, Fisherman...do you have a date for that?

As to the question earlier regarding why so many people here are happy to quickly dismiss theories...that's not fair. The fact is that when a theory contains so many obvious and provable errors (suspect in France at the time; in bed at a workhouse; on a boat off the coast of Djibouti; dead), then why spend time discussing it?

Hi, I assume that's adressed to me.

The point I was making was that the theory was being dismissed before it had even been put forward in context. Who's to say that Trow won't be able to provide evidence which shows that Mann was able to wander the streets at night? Certainly he needs to, to counter the argument that he was confined to the workhouse and/or strictly supervised.

Perhas he can't, in which case his argument falls apart. All I'm saying is give the Mann a chance.

[Radical Joe]

I found it interesting from the outset, Joe - not least because I know that there is sometimes a connection inbetween serial killers and a wish to work at places like morgues and such. It is a simple thing to understand.

When Mann is pinpointed as a 52 year old inmate, though, I think we are dealing with something a lot less interesting. I am not ruling him out as such, but I have seen far too many a pound made on wild speculations that had better never been raised to become anything but a cynic, Iīm afraid. And Mannīs candidacy seems to do very little to change that wiew so far.

I have, however, tried to order the book, but it seems it is already sold out, and so I shall have to wait and see. The optimist in me tells me itīs him for sure - but the cynic usually wins the bout...

The best,
Fisherman

Hi,

Yep, I can appreciate the cynical aspect that comes with the subject. I tend to wonder in and out of 'Ripperology'. I usually read a couple of books (or watch a couple of documentaries) then think 'what a load of nonsense...I've had enough of this' and leave the subject alone for a few years. Right now, I'm in my 'well, let's give em a chance' phase which, going on previous experience, should last for another six months - or one book/documentary, whichever comes first.

I agree that his age and supposed workhouse status is something of a barrier here but, as I've said, I'll wait until sunday to see how he counters these (and other) objections.

[claire]

'idiocy could not have supplied two more incapable men'...marvellous.

excellent stuff, Fisherman...do you have a date for that?

As to the question earlier regarding why so many people here are happy to quickly dismiss theories...that's not fair. The fact is that when a theory contains so many obvious and provable errors (suspect in France at the time; in bed at a workhouse; on a boat off the coast of Djibouti; dead), then why spend time discussing it?

[Fisherman]

From the Evening News:

"On the morning of her murder this poor woman's body was taken to the mortuary attached to the Whitechapel Workhouse, and there undressed and washed by two men, pauper inmates of the workhouse. Decency might have found two women paupers, but idiocy could not have supplied two more incapable men. Robert Mann and James Hatfield, unprovided with material in the shape of body or brains to gain subsistence in the great world, are consigned to a workhouse, and there given power to interfere with the investigations of men with whom brains is a necessity, or their existence is a failure. Robert Mann yesterday did not know exactly what had happened on the morning of the murder, and the coroner explained that "the witness was subject to fits," and "that his statements are hardly reliable." James Hatfield was even less reliable. He cut off some of the woman's clothes, and tore down her chemise, but he swore she wore no stays. Upon this, the foreman exclaimed, "Why, you tried the stays on the body of the deceased in my presence at the mortuary." That two such men should have been allowed without instructions from the police to proceed to cut the clothes, wash the body, and possibly destroy traces that would have aided in the detection of the criminal is so preposterously stupid that it could not exist anywhere but in London. The time has surely come when the police stations of the metropolis shall have proper mortuaries attached to them so that the help of epileptic paupers warranted to forget what they have done shall not be brought into requisition."

The best, all!
Fisherman

[Chris]

There is a useful page on Mann in the Wiki section of this site:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Robert_Mann

[c.d.]

Thanks for that info, Fisherman. It certainly seems to raise serious doubts.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

C.d asks:

"Is it an established fact that he was in a workhouse during the Autumn of 1888 or just speculation?"

Itīs in the inquest papers on Nichols, c.d - he is presented as a workhouse inmate: "Robert Mann, the keeper of the mortuary, said the police came to the workhouse, of which he was an inmate."

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Radical Joe writes:

"Well, it certainly won't be for the best for the proposer of the theory (Trow) and, likewise, surely anyone who genuinley wants to discover the identity of the Ripper would like to hear a compelling argument put forward that has them thinking 'hmmm...now that's interesting'.

TBH, I find it bemusing that people who post on a forum dedicated to JTR could be hoping that a theory fails or suggesting it's 'for the best' that it does fail before they've even heard the theory."

I found it interesting from the outset, Joe - not least because I know that there is sometimes a connection inbetween serial killers and a wish to work at places like morgues and such. It is a simple thing to understand.

When Mann is pinpointed as a 52 year old inmate, though, I think we are dealing with something a lot less interesting. I am not ruling him out as such, but I have seen far too many a pound made on wild speculations that had better never been raised to become anything but a cynic, Iīm afraid. And Mannīs candidacy seems to do very little to change that wiew so far.

I have, however, tried to order the book, but it seems it is already sold out, and so I shall have to wait and see. The optimist in me tells me itīs him for sure - but the cynic usually wins the bout...

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Miss Marple,

I am not clear on what you are saying. Is it an established fact that he was in a workhouse during the Autumn of 1888 or just speculation?

c.d.

[Radical Joe]

Hello Joe. That's a possibility. Perhaps Mann, like Kosminski, had the situation well in hand.

LC

Eureka! The title for my new book: 'Jack the Ripper was a W*nker - Case Closed.' Who could argue with that? I'll throw in a few laughably outrageous, and unsubstantiated, claims for good measure, ridicule anyone whose theories conflict with mine ("A eunuch? I'll hear no such thing") and BINGO, I too could be lauded on here.

Or not.

[lynn cates]

possibility

Hello Joe. That's a possibility. Perhaps Mann, like Kosminski, had the situation well in hand.

LC