Could the killer have been ambidextrous?

[Mitch Rowe]

Yes.. And I want to make it clear on my part. When I refer to an "Inquest" document I am referring to the documents listed as "Official" on this website. I am aware these are compiled from press reports and there is room for argument but if one wishes to argue we can start from there.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes.. And I want to make it clear on my part. When I refer to an "Inquest" document I am referring to the documents listed as "Official" on this website. I am aware these are compiled from press reports and there is room for argument but if one wishes to argue we can start from there.

What's there to argue about? The snippets in the Times are no more "official" than those carried in other papers. It just so happens that the Echo and some other papers carry more detail - detail we should be grateful for, in the absence of the "true" official records. Even the official records can be deficient - and inaccurate - at times, so it's always best to look at more than the usual sources.

[smezenen]

But if we are assuming Kelly was definitely murdered by the ripper, why would he plan her murder, when ti others appear to be a case of wrong place, wrong time?

I still believe he planned them all, he may not have had a specific victim in mind but he surely picked the place and time. I believe he cased each area and planned out each murder much like a hunting trip. I also think he may have meet MJK in another place and would have done her there but for the fact that she invited him home.

[iris84]

I still believe he planned them all, he may not have had a specific victim in mind but he surely picked the place and time. I believe he cased each area and planned out each murder much like a hunting trip. I also think he may have meet MJK in another place and would have done her there but for the fact that she invited him home.

Ah, when you put it like that, it makes more sense. Cheers m'dear!

[Jane Coram]

This post is probably extending the boundaries of how Jack held the knife a bit, but it might open up the discussion so I'll risk it.

Smezenen might actually be able to help with a bit more information here......

Although I don't think that Martha Tabram was a victim of Jack the Ripper, her injuries were mainly to the breast and upper body, as well as her throat.

Her attacker must have been holding the knife like a dagger, that is, he stabbed downwards. Those wounds could not have been inflicted by someone holding the knife as you would hold a sword hilt. The wounds to the liver, spleen and lower part of the lungs and stomach could have been done thrusting upwards, but I think it would have been impossible to effect the upper wounds, especially the throat wounds that way. The only possible exception is if Martha was sitting propped up against the wall and he was crouching at a funny angle, but that has to be extremely unlikely! Perhaps someone that has military experience could give an opinion on that?

In the case of the canonical five, it might be worth examining the post mortem testimony again, not just looking at whether or not Jack was ambidexterous, but also how he might have been holding the knife, whichever hand he was using to inflict the wounds. What might appear to be a left handed wound, could in fact just be him holding the knife differently or working from a different position couldn't it?

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[perrymason]

Hi all,

There are contemporary opinions offered in some of the murder investigations as to the likelihood of the killer being right handed or left, I agree with Mitch that in Mary Kellys case its less likely by the evidence that her killer was right handed.....she was on the right side of the bed, next to a wall, raised her left arm to protect her face and neck from slashes being delivered by a man on her left side..if he was holding the knife in his left hand we dont need to have dramatic explanations on how precisely he was slashing her.

I think in Liz Strides case a man holding her scarf and pulling and twisting it with his left hand while she falls..then sliding his knife across her throat with his right hand makes some sense...it would be difficult for Annies killer to be between her and the fence, so he likely kills her from her right hand side, attacking from behind...I dont think there is enough evidence one way or another in Pollys murder, but with Kate the killer sectioned her colon and placed the 2 foot section between her left arm and her body...if he was between her legs when he cuts her then using his right hand to cut and left to place, or left to cut and right to place seems about equally probable.

Since we dont know whether he was above the heads of some women when cutting the throat, from a side or from between their legs...its hard to guesstimate. My only guess in that respect is that he was in a position to avoid any spray when he did it....so likely from the opposite side of the origins of the initial cut....or from above, tilting the head with the other hand.

I think it wouldnt be me if I didnt add this....that even if every Canonical Victim clearly showed that the killer was right handed...that doesnt mean one man did them all. Its by far the predominant hand used in any general population. But if they were all left handed.....thats a bit more suggestive of something like a clue.

Best regards.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!


I use the following objects only with my right hand; a tennis racket, a mouse ( but there aren't that many computers with a mouse for the lefties to my knowledge! ), an object for making drawings...

The only left-hand objects; an ice-hockey stick, a guitar, a coffee-cup/tea-cup, a spoon, a pint, a cigarette...

That depends; an object for writing text (though I prefer the right one, since I can see my writing then! ), generally anything I'm trying for the first time...

Just presenting a subjective view about that, that being ambidextrous isn't that simple!

On the other hand(what a metphor! ): Jeff McDonald - a US army officer killing his family, whose case inspired "Fatal Vision" - was ambidextrous!

All the best
Jukka

[smezenen]

Jane,
First I dont imply with this post that Jack had any formal knife fighting training or that he must have held his knife in any peticular fashion. With that being said here is what I hope is an answer to your question.

A dagger is made for straight forward stabing stikes, one would not slash with it. See picture 1 below. (i assume this is the what you mean by holding the knife like a dagger)

This would NOT be the best grip to use based on the following:
(keep in mind I am mainly right handed)
1- stabbing straigth forward from waist level would give you the most power this would produce wounds to the abdomain and possibly lower chest. these wounds would be just right of center for me, just left of center for a left handed person.
2- in order to produce wounds to the sides of the body you would have to be standing on that side or turn your wrist and stab in a side to side motion in which case you lose power.
3- any slashing movements would also be side to side with the wrist turned.

As you can see keeping the wrist straight is the key to getting power from your stike.

A much better grip would be the reverse grip. See picture 2 below.
1- stabbing would occure with a downward motion producing wounds to the head, neck,and chest area. (much more immediately lethal areas)
2- slashing wounds can be made to the neck using a side to side motion by turning the elbow instead of the wrist (maintains power) See picture 3 below.

here is an example of one killing blow that uses this gripping method;
Imagine your victim in front of you. with a good shape knife about 8-12 inches long in your right hand (if you are left handed exchange all rigths for lefts), drop your right shoulder a little then make a long slashing motion from the groin to the chest, step forward with your right foot planting it just as the knife makes contact, twist your upper body to the right slightly and roll your right shoulder in an upward motion as you make the cut and you will easily gut your victim.

that was a little long winded but i hope it is an answer to your question.

[Mr.Hyde]

He was ambidextrous.Born left handed.Possibly stuttered as a child.
Interesting that some of the letters reasonably attributed to JTR were written left handed,some right handed.Entirely different styles to boot.Also different personas.Likely written by the same person,oddly.

[perrymason]

Hi smezenen,

In your first photo the blade can also be face up and used to stab with a thrust or to cut upwards,.. in your second photo the blade can also be face down and used with a downward stabbing motion, but a man who might know knife fighting might use the position in photo two and three to push slice across with the blade facing away from the user, horizontal. Photo 3 is really the only one you would get a real knife fighter to buy into I believe...it allows you to guard and cut the attacker at the same time, you can use that hand as a fist too, and the blade faces away from the user. It fairly easy to disarm someone who uses a knife like in Photo 1...its much harder in Photo 3....and from Photo 3 you can still pivot the arm and stab downward like the position in Photo 2.

I think the throat cuts.. if from the side, or from above the victims head or between their legs, would probably be a version of your Photo 3, with the knife facing left instead....depending on the hand used of course.

Best regards

[Jane Coram]

Hi Smezenen, (I have to copy and paste your name in every time. )

That's excellent, thank you so much for all your effort there. It gives me a lot to think about, (I suspect a few other people as well!).

The one thing I've always thought was interesting in the pm reports is that some of the wounds were inflicted from bottom to top, that is cutting upwards. In Kate Eddowes case particularly the long wound that went from groin to sternum was cut upwards. Her killer cut around her navel on the left side, which would seem to indicate that he was using his right hand.

The victims all had their throats cut from left to right as well, which would seem to suggest that he was mainly right handed as well. I think that Jack was almost certainly predominantly right handed, but that he may have used his left hand at times when he couldn't get access with his right, but probably wasn't really ambidexterous in the true sense of the word. It was interesting in your post that you said you are 'mainly right handed.' as well.

Thanks for the info anyway Smezenen. I'm going back to have another look at the post mortem reports with some of those points in mind.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[smezenen]

perrymason,
yes thats the point of the post. photos 2 and 3 are the gripping method used in the style of knife fighting that i learned and later taught as a soldier. The only difference between the 2 photos is that the arm is turned at the elbow. I originaly took photo 2 to illustrate the knife position for the killing strike i described at the end of the post. there are 6 killing strikes for this gripping style. you are correct about turning the knife blade to face the other way. a really good knife fighter can actually turn the blade quickly between strikes in order to attack an area that an opponents exposes.

Jane,
the reason i stated i was mainly right handed is alot of the training we did with knifes included both hands, some fighters actually use both hands at the same time. im talking about using 2 knifes here not switching one knife from hand to hand, you will never catch an expert doing that.

everyone is ambidextrous to some degree, as an example how do you cut your steak do you use your main hand to hold the fork or the knife. in either case you are using both at the same time and therefore you are being ........ambidextrous.

[Crystal]

Well, this is all very interesting. Handedness can be viewed as a sliding scale - at each end you have a few people who are very strongly right or left handed, and in the middle you have the person who is truly ambidextrous - that is, he can just as easily perform most, or even all motor-related tasks with either hand. Most people fall on either side of the middle. I am left handed, but only just.

It is in fact quite likely that the Ripper, in common with almost everyone, favoured one hand over the other, although I'm not sure we can tell which. He almost certainly wrote with his right, though, as I'm sure we all know. Otherwise he would have been sinister and not dextrous - wait a minute - he was quite sinister, actually....

[perrymason]

Well, this is all very interesting. Handedness can be viewed as a sliding scale - at each end you have a few people who are very strongly right or left handed, and in the middle you have the person who is truly ambidextrous - that is, he can just as easily perform most, or even all motor-related tasks with either hand. Most people fall on either side of the middle. I am left handed, but only just.

It is in fact quite likely that the Ripper, in common with almost everyone, favoured one hand over the other, although I'm not sure we can tell which. He almost certainly wrote with his right, though, as I'm sure we all know. Otherwise he would have been sinister and not dextrous - wait a minute - he was quite sinister, actually....

Hi Crystal,

On the two sections I put in bold above....on the first, its actually more accurate to say that the majority of people would fall into a primarily Right Hand user category. It was widely assumed for many years that 1 in 10 would be left handed. Recently that has been upped to around 15%, based on the fact that in modern educational environments children who prefer left handed writing are not discouraged from doing so, as they were in the past.

So, just out of the gate on this question there is around a 85-90% probability that any person on the street will be a Right Handed individual primarily. Its not a choice they make, its a physiological fact regarding human beings.

So you can see the second point coming.....its highly probable that he did have a biological preference, and that it was Right Handedness.

I think Jane alluded to the only real way to assess this in the Ripper murders....we know most were cut right to left,...if we know where he was physically when he cuts the throats, we will have his preferred hand.

If he killed them standing, from behind, hes probably Left Handed...but we dont think Polly, Annie and Kate and Mary were cut from behind. The first 3 were lying down so we need to know where he was crouching or standing, and Marys throat may have been cut right to left by a Left Handed Man.

Best regards Crystal.

[Mr.Hyde]

The Lusk Letter c/w kidney was certainly written with the left hand.