Did Jack the Ripper even exist?

[Robert]

I would have thought the murders would have the effect of making the women less willing to go out working, and more choosy about who they went with. I don't see how the pimps would benefit from that. Plus, there are logistical problems. For instance, did Eddowes's pimp hang around outside BPS, waiting for several hours until he could get his hands on her? Or did he by sheer coincidence bump into her at 1.35 AM in an area that she probably didn't often go to?

[Howard Brown]

Bob:

A thought occurs to me...

Despite the murder of Tabram ( news and undoubtedly exaggerated news at that,had to spread throughout the community..."Did you know the killer stabbed Martha 500 times?"..."Did you hear that Martha had her eyes poked out?") and the subsequent murder of Polly Nichols which then created the Leather Apron scare...women were still on the streets. I recall the comments found in the Sept.4th,1888 edition of The Star where 50 streetwalkers gave their views on the murders that had transpired to one of the paper's reporters...and this,of course,was 4 days before Chapman was killed.

Now, if these women: Smith,Tabram and Nichols.. did have pimps,which I don't believe you are arguing for,since there's no evidence that they did, one would think if the subsequent victims did have them, they were failures.

The amount of time between Nichols and Chapman's murders,along with the fact they were murdered outdoors and were mutilated, might have had an effect on how prostitutes plied their trade if they were being pimped...but the WM victims after Nichols...C/E and possibly Kelly, weren't...A pimped prostitute would probably have ensured his cash cow's safety to some degree whereas an unpimped pross was on her own.



Its a funny thing or a rather sad thing in that had they had pimps,perhaps they would not have been murdered...and of course,some others probably would have been.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Dark Passenger,

Only a small point, but probably one that someone ought to make....
When a prostitute talks about stashing money in her 'money box' she's not talking about the uterus, but her vagina, as the uterus isn't generally accessible from the outside, and without being vulgar, if anything went in, it wouldn't be coming out again in a hurry!

I just thought I'd better clear that up because it wouldn't really be a good reason for Jack to extract the uteri, although I suppose it would be one way to access the vagina if he was looking for stashed money there, just a bit unlikely I think.

Jane

xxxxx

[Howard Brown]

You beat everyone to it,Janie...good going.

The comments made so far about the old 'cash box" reminds me of the old song D'Onston was fond of singing and strummin' on the ukelele when he and Collins got hammered on chloral and brandy....you remember,don't ya? Its got a money and moneymaker connection too....the age old classic..

"Off the Table Mabel,That Shillings For Soup !"

[Robert]

Hi How

Well, I'm assuming that pimps don't follow their women 24 hours a day - what happens if they run several? - and I imagine that they will sometimes just expect a certain sum each week, with the threat of violence if it's not paid. I suppose if the pimp is short of cash, or the woman has a drink habit etc, which would absorb her earnings, he might follow her round to make sure of collecting the money after each transaction.

No jokes about a wages snatch, please.

[Sam Flynn]

No jokes about a wages snatch, please.

... better that, than a cervix charge.

[Cap'n Jack]

Like I said, Ally, you are looking at the stats for the entire Metropolitan area whilst I am using the stats for Whitechapel only. These show that the murders attributed to whom you call 'Jack the Ripper', a serial killer, had no influence whatsoever on the numbers of murders committed in Whitchapel in 1888 as the murder rate remained stationary for a three year period.
One would in a small community expect to see an increase in the rate of murder should a serial killer suddenly appear on the scene, as in my own island community when the 'Beast of Jersey' suddenly appeared on the scene, rapidly increasing the statistics for kidnap and rape for the time period he was operating.
I think you will find that the murder statistics for a small town in Norfolk over the last few years will certainly reflect the fact that a serial killer was on the rampage there.

[Howard Brown]

Bob:

I would think pimps did wait for their cash cows to come home to divvy up their earnings...but in the case of the WM victims, I seriously doubt any of these women were being pimped..although Kelly, if any,could have been. By now, someone would have probably found it mentioned somewhere that one or more did get pimped back in the day and someone would have found it referenced. Ze hunt goes on...

I think,cannot prove, that those who were pimped were younger ( 17-30) with few of 'em if any at the 40 year mark. Tabram rested on the cusp of 40 and N/C/S/E are all over fortysomethings.

Sammy....thanks for taking the opporpoonity to follow up that incorrigible Linford with that joke. T'was a good one.

[Sam Flynn]

I think you will find that the murder statistics for a small town in Norfolk over the last few years will certainly reflect the fact that a serial killer was on the rampage there.

That would depend on what the baseline was to start with, AP. Seen against the criminal statistics for the whole of the UK, Harold Shipman's tally of hundreds barely registered as a blip. Seen against the statistics for Hyde, Greater Manchester, they'd have gone off the scale.

[Mitch Rowe]

Crimes are "connected" when the perpetrator is unknown by "common detective sense" and a list of "statistics" of wich I have never seen! Im sure theres a list its just that after experience with many different cases one gets a sense of how common something is going to be at a murder scene.

Example: How many murders have members of your team seen where the head was nearly chopped off? One out of ten? 1 out of 100? Or one out of 1000?

But its not only that. Its very helpful to understand the criminal mind. Not only the differences but more importantly the similarities with normal law abiding folk.

In short.. Macnaghten isnt pulling victims out of his hat when he sets the C5 in motion. He is using the same practical techniques and skills any modern detective would use.

[Robert]

How, I'm not arguing that the victims had pimps, just that if they did., the pimps would have been unlikely to do that to them. The only murders I can think of that might have been by pimps (in a fit of anger) are Stride and Coles.

Also I doubt if a pimp would have randomly killed just any woman, on the principle of "keep the women frightened." It would have been counter-productive. And how could the pimp be sure that the message would have been understood by the other prostitutes? It's not as though disembowelment was a pimp signature.

[Cap'n Jack]

Sorry, Sam, forgive my useless eyes at the mo. I, of course, meant Ipswich in Suffolk and the serial killer, Wright, who murdered five prostitutes there in December of 2006.
I think what I'm being asked to believe on this thread is that this sudden spree - just as in the Whitechapel sudden spree of 1888 - would not have influenced the statistics for the murder of women in Ipswich for the years 2005, 2006 and 2007.
Is that right?

[Cap'n Jack]

Robert, it's worth remembering that it was in fact mostly gangs, rather than individuals, who controlled and monitored the activities of prostitutes on their particular patch.
In patch the prostitutes would have been relatively safe, but to stray out of patch would have been considered poaching; and it strikes me that Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were peregrinating well off patch when they died.

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, Sam, forgive my useless eyes at the mo. I, of course, meant Ipswich in Suffolk and the serial killer, Wright, who murdered five prostitutes there in December of 2006.
I think what I'm being asked to believe on this thread is that this sudden spree - just as in the Whitechapel sudden spree of 1888 - would not have influenced the statistics for the murder of women in Ipswich for the years 2005, 2006 and 2007.
Is that right?

As I said, AP - it would depend on the baseline. Ipswich, being a somewhat sleepy town, would I dare say see a bit of a blip following the 5 Wright murders, as I'd assume that the murder baseline would be rather low. Not sure that would be the same for Victorian Whitechapel, if its baseline were higher to start with.

[Cap'n Jack]

So, Sam, if 5 prostitutes were murdered in Ipswich in 2005, and then 5 in 2007, the arrival of a spree serial killer who murders five prostitutes in very short time in 2006 should increase that to 10?
Or would it be five?
I personally don't have a difficulty with this, for my base line is that a prolific serial killer should surface as a blimp on the statistics, otherwise he wouldn't be a prolific serial killer would he?
It would be just the day to day murder and mayhem of the LVP.
So where is he?