Did Jack the Ripper even exist?

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks for unearthing those stats, Simon. Extremely interesting.

[perrymason]

I think I fall on the side of Allys post...in that we do not have run of the mill murders here, despite the relative stability of the overall numbers.

Which investigation was it that an authority representative suggested that if they had the same rights as their counterparts in France for example they would have been able to find and catch the fiend.

Is this just Monday morning quarterbacking?

Best regards all

[Barnaby]

Even if the numbers stayed the same from year to year, the perpetrators committing them surely vary. In 1888 there just happens to be 3-5 very similar murders in a very short period of time. I think it is safe to say we have a serial killer here.

[Cap'n Jack]

Or two?
Or none.
What about the torso killings?

[Mike Covell]

Still trying to wrap my head around Jack being taken as a normal hack and slash robber. Apparently he thought Chapman and Eddowes kept their change purses in their uteri.

Maybe he was after Blood Money!

[Steve S]

Which investigation was it that an authority representative suggested that if they had the same rights as their counterparts in France for example they would have been able to find and catch the fiend.

Think that was Anderson...'tho exactly what he meant by it....??
Steve

[perrymason]

Think that was Anderson...'tho exactly what he meant by it....??
Steve

Hi Steve,

Thats the "rub" really isnt it. Is there suggestion that the investigations failed to result in a arrest and conviction because they lacked the powers to act? They did do door to door searches and entered and inspected premises...so it seems to me that they were allowed private dwelling access authority at least. So what additional powers did they need to make it happen?

I think one area that may justify that is the period of incarceration allowed for suspicion only...I believe France allowed for holding without bail indefinitely for violent crimes at that time.

Perhaps this rears its head in the signature verifications they sought from San Francisco for Tumblety...maybe they wanted to be able to hold people longer to check them out.

Cheers Steve.

[DarkPassenger]

'Such precise mutilations - or consistent, should I say.'
That doesn't sit too well though with the concept of a 'frenzied' attack, does it?

I never said anything about a frenzied attack - the mutilations were fairly consistent in all victims, and the MO was pretty straightforward and consistent.

I'm quite prepared to believe that the mythical monster we know as 'Jack the Ripper' never existed at all.
As I have often pointed out I have found similar cases from the LVP where prostitutes have been viciously attacked in a robbery where the attempts by the robbers to remove the victim' stays and skirts with blades to get at their secret pocket has resulted in what could be seen later as a frenzied attack upon their person rather than their possessions.
Many of these cases showed a total disregard for the life of the woman who was being robbed, and knife wounds to the throat, breasts, abdomen and genitalia were not uncommon.

Capt'n Jack said earlier that prostitutes were known to keep their money in their "money boxes," or uteri. I'll concede - this seems to me, to be a good enough reason why the Ripper was obviously aiming to remove the uterus of each victim.

I think it both amusing and rewarding to refelect on some research I did here on site some years ago, which showed that the same number of East End women were either murdered, or severely injured, in attacks with blades in 1887, 1888 and 1889.
So if we accept as fact that Jack the Ripper existed then his murderous rampage had no impact on the statistics of murder in that time slice of the LVP, which must mean that he never existed.
Because if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of Whitechapel then the statistics would surely reflect that peculiar situation.

You're using the same logic as Wilson when considering why the elderly are over-victimized in Britain, by serial killers. He asked why the number of elderly victims are in their hundreds, far higher than any other group - forgetting that over three quarters of his sample were killed by Shipman alone, skewing the numbers considerably.
You're saying that Jack's killing spree should show up as a spike in murder statistics, except that he only killed five victims in a district full of murder, hardly a spike in activity. If anything, you're inference shows either that Jack's been killing for years and years, or that he only killed his five victims in three months or so.

Or two?
Or none.
What about the torso killings?

They do not match Jack's MO and certainly do not seem to tie in with the idea that the victims were killed for their money (hidden in their uteri).

[Cap'n Jack]

Not at all. As you'll be aware the commonest way to smuggle drugs and other forbidden articles into prisons is using the method I have described.
And you are misarticulating my meanderings intentionally.
For I'm suggesting that if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of London, for which we have the statistics, and kills between five and seven women in a relatively short period of time, then one would expect the statistics to reflect this... they don't.
Are you suggesting that other killers of women held off for the duration of the murders in Whitechapel?

[Nothing to see]

Not at all. As you'll be aware the commonest way to smuggle drugs and other forbidden articles into prisons is using the method I have described.
And you are misarticulating my meanderings intentionally.
For I'm suggesting that if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of London, for which we have the statistics, and kills between five and seven women in a relatively short period of time, then one would expect the statistics to reflect this... they don't.
Are you suggesting that other killers of women held off for the duration of the murders in Whitechapel?

It was Jack. Of course it was. No wannabe Jack's, no copy cats. Jack killed 5 women. It was Jack. No-one else. IMO

[Lord-z]

For I'm suggesting that if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of London, for which we have the statistics, and kills between five and seven women in a relatively short period of time, then one would expect the statistics to reflect this... they don't.

The thing about statistics is, they swing. How many murders were there in 1886? 1890? In 1888, there just happened to be a few murders less in the east end, which Jack unwittingly balanced out so that they resembled last years numbers. I mean, you are making it sound like the East End had a killing quota.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

its a possible theory..... but if it were pimps doing the murders it just would not make sense, because they killed liz and mary, who were 'pretty' and could have made money. this would be like farmers pouring acid on there crops, it would stop the pimps money flow..

---MJK---

[Ally]

Lord-z,

The problem is though, that's not even what happened. If you read the excerpt provided by simon, you will see it states clearly that the average kill rate for the five years before 1888 was 31. In 1888, there were 36 murders. An increase in the average of exactly five. So Jack did have an affect on the murder rate in 1888, it went up by precisely five. An increase of five may not be statistically significant, but it certainly is numerically significant.

[Howard Brown]

Quick comment or two:

Older American males...even women...may remember the old phrase, "Back In A Flash With The Cash In The Gash". That,of course,refers to prostitutes and the place they stashed their money from a trick.

Second and final....compare the murders from the years preceding 1888...going back to 1869 as Simon Wood kindly provided....with the WM.

The WM crimes occurred after Bloody Sunday in 1887 when tensions between the people and police were at their highest...not to mention the newspapers flexing their collective muscle. They were also extremely violent murders. Do any of the pre-1888 murders involve sticks in vaginal areas( Smith in April)...39 stabs in a hallway ( Tabram in August)...or mutilations to the degree N/C/ and E suffered....not to forget the November 9th Massacre?

[perrymason]

Quick comment or two:

Older American males...even women...may remember the old phrase, "Back In A Flash With The Cash In The Gash". That,of course,refers to prostitutes and the place they stashed their money from a trick.

Second and final....compare the murders from the years preceding 1888...going back to 1869 as Simon Wood kindly provided....with the WM.

The WM crimes occurred after Bloody Sunday in 1887 when tensions between the people and police were at their highest...not to mention the newspapers flexing their collective muscle. They were also extremely violent murders. Do any of the pre-1888 murders involve sticks in vaginal areas( Smith in April)...39 stabs in a hallway ( Tabram in August)...or mutilations to the degree N/C/ and E suffered....not to forget the November 9th Massacre?

Hi Howard,

I heartily agree with the subtext there....it would be foolish to ignore the intense emotions present in those neighborhoods when assessing these crimes. Political or Philosophical issues are one thing, but police killed some protesters on Bloody Sunday, I read that it was estimated as many as 1,000,000 lined the route of the funeral of one female beating victim. One beating victim a few years later shoots a gun off outside the parliament buildings..still an active socialist. It was this event that divided some senior opinion as to the nature of the threat of this ever growing mass of unemployed immigrants in the area. A rabble or an army?

Inside the force and from outside the authorities had serious problems ongoing when it came to them investigating these crimes at street level.

Cheers Howard, my best to you.