spellings

[DVV]

Hi all,
can anyone help me about the "mad pork butcher"?
Was he Jakob or Joseph, at last?
"Isenschmid" or "Issenschmidt"?
Were his lodgings at 60 "Milford" or "Mitford" Road ?

Thanks in advance,
Amitiés,
David

[Mike Covell]

Hi David, "A-Z" has him as Joseph Issenschmidt, 59 Elthorne Road and later took lodgings at 60 Milford Road.

[DVV]

Thanks Mike,
unfortunately that does not clear the problem, since Begg has always opted for "Joseph Issenschmidt".
Just look at how baffling is the confusion here:

Sugden has : Jacob Isenschmid

Begg and A-Z: Joseph Issenschmidt

Police reports: Joseph Isenschmid

Then, on old boards, one poster said that "Joseph Isenschmid" was the spelling of the police reports (true), while "Jacob Is(s)enschmidt" appeared in asylum's registers...
If so, both Begg and Sugden are wrong, having mixed together two distinct sources...
And another poster, who introduced himself as a descendant of JI, called him Jacob/Jakob...

Again, the lodgings address creates problems:

Mitford Road for Sugden...
Milford Road for Begg...
And, last but not least, some police reports have "Milford" (ex: Styles, 11 Sept), while others have "Mitford" (ex: Thick, 17 Sept)....


AAAAAAAHHHHHHH, MIIIIIIIKE!!!!

[Mike Covell]

I am having the same problems with transcribing newspaper reports, do I keep the mistakes in the transcription, or change them! Of course I have opted to save them, but this means adding notes and references left right and centre!

[Chris Scott]

Hi David
It appears that in all registration documents (births, marriages etc) the spelling was Isenschmid
However, there are variant spellings in the census returns (see the notes below)
And his forename was definitely Jacob
Hope this helps
Chris

Marriage:
1867 Quarter 4
St Lukes
Jacob Isenschmid married Mary Ann Joyce

1871:
4 Baldwin Street, Finsbury
Head: Jacob Isenschmich aged 28 born Swiss - Butcher
Wife: Mary Ann Isenschmich aged 30 born Gilston, Essex
Child:
John Richard aged 2 born St Lukes

1881:
52 Kingsbury Road, Islington
Head: Jacob Isenschmid aged 37 born Switzerland - Journeyman Butcher
Wife: Mary Isenschmid aged 41 born Gilston, Essex
Children:
John R aged 12 born St Lukes
Kate aged 9 born St Lukes
Ada aged 6 born Hackney
Annie aged 3 born Islington
Minnie aged 1 born Islington

1891:
97 Dunscombe Road, Islington
Head: Mary Isenschmidt (Married) aged 50 born Eastwick, Essex
Children:
John R aged 22 born Gilston, Essex - Waiter
Ada M aged 17 born Gilston, Essex - Dressmaker
Minnie J aged 11 born Kingsland, London
Jessie aged 8 born Kingsland
Amy M aged 6 born Kingsland

1901:
42 Grovedale Road, Islington
Head: Mary Isenschmid (Married) aged 60 born Eastwick, Essex
Children:
Minnie aged 21 born Islington - Wholesale chemist's packer
Jessie aged 18 born Islington - Domestic servant
Amy M aged 16 born Islington - Dressmaker

Deaths listed:
John Richard Isenschmid died 1891 aged 22 in Islington
Mary Isenschmid died 1929 aged 88 in Edmonton, Essex
Jacob Isenschmid died 1910 aged 63 in Barnet

[DVV]

Many thanks Chris,
you're definitely indispensable.

Amitiés,
David

[Little Nell]

Jacob Isenschmid/t was the father of Katherine Isenschmid/t who became the second wife of my great grandfather Charles Williams.

Her birth was registered as Catherine Isenschmid and she is only Isenschmidt on her marriage cert, where her father is described as Jacob John Isenschmidt and his occupation given as Meat salesman.

By a curious chance, at the time of the marriage, whilse Jacob was in Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum, Charles' uncle, William Mealing was in Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum, where he'd been for over 40 years, having been found innocent on the grounds of insanity of cutting his fiancee's throat with a razor.

The Mealings and Williams are on my mother's side of the family. On my Dad's side I've found a 1st cousin 3 x removed who killed a 15-yr old prostitute on Midsummer Common in Cambridge and became the first person to be hanged at Cambridge Gaol.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Nell, welcome to the discussion. Quite a string of coincidences there.

Roy

[Sam Flynn]

"Eisenschmied" would mean "ironsmith" in Germanic languages, and "Schmied" often gets morphed into "Schmidt" when used in a personal name. Perhaps your ancestors were smiths way back in the past, Nell?

[Chava]

There are so many ways to spell foreign names. I have my grandmother's name on two official documents in the early 20th century, one as 'Badoch' and one as 'Bladek' whereas she spelled and pronounced it 'Blidik'. It seems that British officials kind of threw up their hands and took their best shot when it came to transcribing those kinds of names!

[Little Nell]

The Isenschmid/ts weren't my ancestors!

My gt grandparents were from Gloucestershire. I knew gt grandfather Charles' 2nd wife was called Kate but didn't know her surname till I got the marriage cert.

When I discovered on the census that Jacob was from Switzerland I thought there might be some info about him on The National Archives website. So it was a big shock when I found there was - in the Whitechapel murder files!!!!

More generally, it is quite usual for spellings to vary. In my own family tree I have Malen, Maling, Mealing, Mailin and Melins for the same family, as well as Chowns/Chouns/Chounes etc. It's only relatively recently that we have developed a sense of the "correct" spellings.

Jacob's daughter was registered as Catharine Annie Isenschmid when she was born, but Katherine Annie Isenschmidt when she married.

[Steven Russell]

The A-Z says that Isenschmid (I use their spelling) had told several women that he was Leather Apron, according to Sergeant Thick.

LA was "said to be Jewish or at least of strongly Semitic appearance." (A-Z again).

Apologies if this rather obvious thought has been raised before, and I am sure it almost certainly has, but how likely is it that a Jew would have been a PORK butcher? Not very, I would say.

We know that he was not the Ripper and, to my mind, we also know that it is unlikely that Isenschmid was Leather Apron either, despite his possible boasts to the contrary.

I am beginning to wonder about the good sergeant...

Just a thought,

Steve.

[Steven Russell]

Dear Mike Covell,

My copy of the "A-Z" (3rd edn. 1996) has him as "Jacob Isenschmid". I don't suppose it matters much though except, possibly, to his family.

Best wishes,

Steve.

[lynn cates]

to T; or, not to T

Hello All. His 1887 admission to Colney Hatch lists him as "Isenschmid." His 1908 admission lists his name (just above his photograph) as "Isenschmidt."

A likely explanation is that the German terminal consonant "d" is pronounced like a "t." Since he was Swiss and spoke German, he would most likely have spelled his name "Isenschmid." In English, however, it is common to interpolate a "t" to ensure the correct pronunciation.

LC

[Little Nell]

Isenschmid wasn't Jewish

as far as I know. He was baptised in Berne, Switzerland. He married in a C of E church, his children were baptised in C of E churches and the asyum records give his religion as C of E. He also worked as a pork butcher which is clearly a non-Jewish occupation.