The death of a Nathan Kaminsky - some questions

[Chris Scott]

Not being an expert on the subject (!) of syphilis, there are a few questions to which I would be very grateful for answers. As I understand it, the causative agent of syphilis was only definitively identified in 1913. In the light of this:
1) How certain were diagnoses of syphilis in the 1880s?
2) How advanced would syphilis have to be in the 1880s for it to be diagnosed reliably?
3) What would be the likely survival period for someone diagnosed with syphilis in 1888?

I ask all of the above because I have found a death record for a Nathan Kaminsky of approximately the right age (within 3 years) who died in Hackney in 1923, but if Kaminsky was accurately diagnosed with syphilis in 1888 and there is not a hope in hell that he could have survived another 35 years, it may not be worth ordering the certificate to get further details
Here is the record:
Death of Nathan Kaminsky

1923 Quarter 2 (Apr-Jun)
Hackney
Kaminsky, Nathan
Aged 61 (born circa 1862)
Vol 1b Page 389

Many thanks
Chris S

[Chris]

I ask all of the above because I have found a death record for a Nathan Kaminsky of approximately the right age (within 3 years) who died in Hackney in 1923, but if Kaminsky was accurately diagnosed with syphilis in 1888 and there is not a hope in hell that he could have survived another 35 years, it may not be worth ordering the certificate to get further details

Judging from the advertisement below, which appeared in the Jewish Chronicle, 18 April 1986, it seems this is one of the two Nathan Kaminskys traced by Martin Fido when he was researching his book (Crimes, Detection and Death, p. 218). This man unfortunately turned out not to have come to England until 1904.

[Sam Flynn]

1) How certain were diagnoses of syphilis in the 1880s?

I'd imagine that diagnoses would be fairly certain, Chris. Each stage of syphilis has its own characteristic symptoms, most of which would have been well-known to doctors by the 1880s. As venereal diseases were extremely common back then, I'd imagine that most medics would have seen sufficient examples to have become familiar with the characteristics of each.


2) How advanced would syphilis have to be in the 1880s for it to be diagnosed reliably?

It would depend on the progress of the disease as to which symptoms the patient presented, but again the manifestation of the disease within each phase was pretty well-known. The incubation periods range from a few weeks for primary syphilis, several weeks for secondary syphilis, through to several years before the symptoms of the tertiary stage appear. A "latent" phase may also intervene, during which no symptoms are evident - a dangerous condition to be in, because the carrier would have appeared healthy, whilst still being infectious.


3) What would be the likely survival period for someone diagnosed with syphilis in 1888?

It would depend on the stage at which the diagnosis was made. If Kaminsky's "mania" were due to GPI ("General Paralysis of the Insane"), a feature of tertiary syphilis, then he'd have been lucky to have lived another 5 years. On the other hand, if he was a "maniac" anyway, then his syphilis may have been diagnosed in its early stages, in which case he might still have had 10, 15, perhaps more, years ahead of him. He'd have been very lucky to have survived for a further 35 years, but it's not impossible.

[The Grave Maurice]

This probably isn't the right thread for this, but I can't find one that discusses Martin Fido's book, and I need some help. I expect to meet Mr Fido in Philadelphia in a few weeks, and I want to be sure that I have correctly remembered his thesis in The Crimes, Detection, and Death of JtR.

As I recall, he liked Nathan Kaminsky as JtR and that Nathan was committed to Colney Hatch under the name David Cohen in late 1888. I believe he states that Kaminsky was confused with Kosminsky because of the similarity of their surnames and because they were the same age and nationality and both received treatment at the same asylum.

I hope that's right because there will be two other presenters in Philly whose books I've yet to read and I'm not sure I'll have the time to re-read Martin's as well.

[Steven Russell]

I think from what I have read on here that Mr. Fido is a lot less keen on Nathan Kaminsky than he was when his book came out. He still likes David Cohen though. If you don't have time to re-read his book, there's a good episode of Rippercast in which he explains his thoughts at the time the recording was made.

Best wishes,
Steve.

PS If I am wide of the mark here, please correct me anyone.

[mariab]

That's all I could trace from the old forum discussions pertaining to Kaminsky, Grave Maurice.
http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/4974.html
You might also check the David Cohen forum: http://forum.casebook.org/forumdisplay.php?f=27;
plus there's an old interview with Fido in the authors section of casebook, in addition to the podcast.
Martin Fido also recently discussed Cohen/Kaminsky in the Plausibilty of Kozminsky thread – a few pages back from today. Since it's a fairly active thread, it'd be quicker to try locating Mr. Fido's posts through the search button inside of the thread in question (typing his name in search this thread)...

[Fleetwood Mac]

Not being an expert on the subject (!) of syphilis, there are a few questions to which I would be very grateful for answers. As I understand it, the causative agent of syphilis was only definitively identified in 1913. In the light of this:
1) How certain were diagnoses of syphilis in the 1880s?
2) How advanced would syphilis have to be in the 1880s for it to be diagnosed reliably?
3) What would be the likely survival period for someone diagnosed with syphilis in 1888?

I ask all of the above because I have found a death record for a Nathan Kaminsky of approximately the right age (within 3 years) who died in Hackney in 1923, but if Kaminsky was accurately diagnosed with syphilis in 1888 and there is not a hope in hell that he could have survived another 35 years, it may not be worth ordering the certificate to get further details
Here is the record:
Death of Nathan Kaminsky

1923 Quarter 2 (Apr-Jun)
Hackney
Kaminsky, Nathan
Aged 61 (born circa 1862)
Vol 1b Page 389

Many thanks
Chris S

The esteemed philosopher Freidrich Neitzsche contracted syphills during the Franco/Prussian war - 1870/1871. He spent much of the next 30 years undergoing various treatments and being bedridden for lengthy spells. At other times, he could function without problem. He ended up insane and I think died in 1899.

Which, I suppose adds some sort of interest, in that the absence of a murder between Eddowes and Kelly could, at a push, be explained by the murderer being bedridden due to syphillis.

[Robert]

Hi Grave

I seem to remember that Martin gave a potted version of his theory in The Mammoth Book Of Jack The Ripper (one chapter by Fido, the rest by various authors discussing various theories).

[Steven Russell]

Hello, Robert and Maurice.
I've just checked and that's correct. The chapter is called David Cohen and the Polish Jew Theory and is about twenty pages.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Robert]

Hi Steven and Grave

There's also this :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-cohen.html

[The Grave Maurice]

That's very helpful advice, gang. Thank you very much.

[Wickerman]

I believe he states that Kaminsky was confused with Kosminsky because of the similarity of their surnames and because they were the same age and nationality and both received treatment at the same asylum.

David Cohen was picked up after an assault, if I recall correctly. He was taken to Leman St. police station, so the police met & knew of David Cohen.

We already know the police had met with and knew very well Aaron Kosminski.

Nathan Kaminski only turns up as a name of someone who was admitted to the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary.

We have no indication anywhere that the police had ever heard of Nathan Kaminski, so who could confuse Kaminski with Kosminski, when we know they already knew the one, but had apparently never heard of the other?

Confusion is the right word.
:-)
Martin & I had a very lengthy exchange over this suspect way back in the late 90's.

Regards, Jon S.

[fido]

Chris - I am astonished! I had myself completely forgotten that I found that Nathan Kaminsky by advertising in the Jewish Chronicle, and never expected to see an image of it!~
You'd make a helluva divorce or background search detective!
Hope you've found all you need, Grave Maurice. See you in Philly!
And in the end, what one has to say of Nathan Kaminsky is that he's one of the "coincidences" candidates: his address coincides with a really highly probably Ripper base; his name coincides with a (now discredited) version Farson thought lay on the Aberconway document. His age coincides with that ascribed to David Cohen. But no precise detail ties him inexorably to any of the documents in the way that David Cohen's unique early death after incarceration ties him and him alone to the Swanson marginalia.
Cohen, by the way, was picked up as a lunatic at large, not in a brawl - i.e. someone manifestly demented and incapable of looking after himself. The magistrates' court docket for his arrest puts it with the arrests of a brothel madam and one of her hookers, which suggests that he might have been taken in during that raid.
All the best,
Martin F

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Martin.What also interests me is that his address soon after his arrival has appeared as being in Leman Street.Now that is surely significant because Mary Kelly was reputed [was that by yourself?] to have had her main patch in Leman Street.Apparently it was popular with girls on the game because of the sailors docked nearby,
It also makes you wonder about him especially with him dying so soon after admittance to Colney Hatch ------after putting them through hell with his dangerous attacks during his violent outbursts.
Best
Norma

[Trevor Marriott]

Chris - I am astonished! I had myself completely forgotten that I found that Nathan Kaminsky by advertising in the Jewish Chronicle, and never expected to see an image of it!~
You'd make a helluva divorce or background search detective!
Hope you've found all you need, Grave Maurice. See you in Philly!
And in the end, what one has to say of Nathan Kaminsky is that he's one of the "coincidences" candidates: his address coincides with a really highly probably Ripper base; his name coincides with a (now discredited) version Farson thought lay on the Aberconway document. His age coincides with that ascribed to David Cohen. But no precise detail ties him inexorably to any of the documents in the way that David Cohen's unique early death after incarceration ties him and him alone to the Swanson marginalia.
Cohen, by the way, was picked up as a lunatic at large, not in a brawl - i.e. someone manifestly demented and incapable of looking after himself. The magistrates' court docket for his arrest puts it with the arrests of a brothel madam and one of her hookers, which suggests that he might have been taken in during that raid.
All the best,
Martin F

I can now see why you look on him then as the cool calculated killer who eldued capture during the autumn of terror the police out on the streets probaly checked him in the vicintyof each murder and thought no this man cant be a killer he is a deluded lunatic frothing at the mouth