"Mickledy Joe"

[Ben]

Hello all,

I'm wondering if anything is known about this character beyond his alleged association with "Leather Apron" and his visits to the Princess Alice pub at the corner of Wentworth and Commercial Streets? Any suggestions as to what might have inspired the "Mickledy" nickname would also be helpful.

With thanks and best wishes,

Ben

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Actually, Ben, it was "Mickeldy" Joe.

Wolf.

[Monty]

Ben,

Many a mickle makes a muckle. Id say Joe was either very small or huge.

Monty

[Ben]

Thanks, guys.

I had the vague idea that "mickeldy" (thanks, Wolf) may be some sort of derivative of "mucky", implying that our Joe was perhaps a little underfurnished in the hygiene department, but maybe not.

[Chris]

Many a mickle makes a muckle. Id say Joe was either very small or huge.

I thought both "mickle" and "muckle" meant large, and that the saying was originally "Many a little makes a muckle".

[Sam Flynn]

In Wales, there's a very well-known folk-song called "Migldi Magldi" (pronounced "Miggledy Maggledy") which is about a blacksmith. North-Walians have a habit of hardening the "g" sound into a "k", which would turn that blacksmith's song into "Mickeldy Mackeldy", I suppose. Perhaps Joe was a singing blacksmith from Caernarfon? (Only half-joking )

[The Good Michael]

Muckle is of Scottish origin and it means 'large' or 'much'. I remember it in the song 'The Battle of Harlaw'.

Mike

[Monty]

Chris,

Mickle and Muckle do indeed mean large, the saying I quoted is an erronous one, and the most common.
Isnt there a slang meaning for the word?

Monty

[Scott Nelson]

It has always been assumed that John Pizer was "Leather Apron" and that Leather Apron was friends with Mickeldy Joe. This would seem to suggest that Pizer knew this man (suggest possible last name of "Joseph" - Michael Joseph?). Joe was never traced beyond his rumored tenancy in a lodging house where, presumably Pizer (if Leather Apron) also stayed. Why Pizer, if he was LA would stay in a lodging house instead of in his family's house on Mulberry Street needs explaining. The possibility that the police questioned Pizer about Mickeldy Joe and apparently learned nothing may suggest that Pizer wasn't really Leather Apron.

[Chris]

Joe was never traced beyond his rumored tenancy in a lodging house where, presumably Pizer (if Leather Apron) also stayed. Why Pizer, if he was LA would stay in a lodging house instead of in his family's house on Mulberry Street needs explaining.

Though there are several press reports that say Pizer did sometimes stay in lodging houses, including a report of an interview with him in the Echo, September 12:
Do you live at 22, Mulberry-street?
Mostly, but when I see anything to be done that is likely to be beneficial to me I sometimes go away.
Where do you live, then?
In lodging-houses, or rather chambers.

Other reports, apparently referring to the same interview, add "but not in Dorset-street".

[Ben]

Hi Scott,

The possibility that the police questioned Pizer about Mickeldy Joe and apparently learned nothing may suggest that Pizer wasn't really Leather Apron.

...Or that "Leather Apron" was more than one person. If rumours of a menacing individual fitting a somewhat generalized or sensational description were doing the rounds in 1888 with a scaremongering nametag such as "Leather Apron" attached to them, it's quite possible that several likely lads fitted the bill and were thus each dubbed "Leather Apron" by locals. Certainly, The Star's description of the alleged miscreant are at odds with that of Pizer in several key areas, notably build. The description itself is potentially an amalgamation of any number of encounters with (or sightings of) dodgy geezers in the area.

For example, we have one account in which two women directed police to "look to the shadows" opposite the Prince Alice Tavern in Commercial Street on the grounds that he would likely keep out of sight there. This would tie in with accounts of "Mickeldy Joe" being present in that pub, but not so much Pizer.

Best regards,
Ben

[Supe]

Aye, meikle or muckle meaning large, great or much is an old Scots word and you'll find it at least in the 1300's, as in these lines from John Barbour:

And when it commis to the ficht,
Ilk man set his hert and micht
To stint our fais mekill pride.
On horse they sall arrayit ride,
And cum on you in weill great hy;
Meet them with spearis hardely
And wreik on them the mekill ill

So there in seven lines were two mekills and one great.

For that matter, I can remember my grandmother reciting a great Doric poem that began: "It wasna his wyte he was beddit sae late/And him wi sae muckle tae dee.

Don.

[The Good Michael]

Don,

That reminds me. I need to have a beer with you someday.

Mike

[Crystal]

Micel -dy?

All from the OE- Micel (pron. Mitchel) as in Micel Here - Great Army, Micelgaete - (Modern, Micklegate - Great (think Main) Street. So = Great, Vast, Huge - so yes, 'large' would do. It seems to retain it's meaning, more or less, up to the present.

Possibly a Scandinavian loan word. There - a bit of useless twaddle for a Friday morning...

Remarkable how words stay around for so long, hey?