Mr Blotchy

[Wickerman]

I suspect Hutchinson was called to look at Isaacs, but couldn't be sure he was the man he saw with Kelly.

In all fairness Scott, I doubt it, unless Abberline believed Hutchinson had the wrong night. It was firmly established where Isaacs was on the night of 8/9 Nov.

[Batman]

So why use Lewende instead of Hutchinson for the Sadler ID?

[Wickerman]

So why use Lewende instead of Hutchinson for the Sadler ID?

They knew where to find Lawende.

[Batman]

They knew where to find Lawende.

This implies they didn't know how to find Hutchinson.

[Wickerman]

This implies they didn't know how to find Hutchinson.

Two and a half years later, where would they begin to look for Hutchinson, or Cox, or Schwartz?
Remember, these three still remain unidentified to us with all our modern assets.

[Wickerman]

https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../19030324.html

All one needs to do is to accept Adam simply got a date wrong and did make the statement to Godly. This was Philip Sugden's solution.

We might be talking about something different.
In Dec. on the detainment of Joseph Isaacs at Bow-street, it was reported.....

Detective-inspector Abberline immediately proceeded to Bow-street, and subsequently brought away the prisoner in a cab, which was strongly escorted..............It is further stated that the inspector was heard to say to one of his subordinates: "Keep this quiet; we have got the right man at last. This is a big thing.”

On his appearance in court, one reported noted....
"He answered to the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat."

This is what I was referring to.

[Batman]

We might be talking about something different.
In Dec. on the detainment of Joseph Isaacs at Bow-street, it was reported.....

Detective-inspector Abberline immediately proceeded to Bow-street, and subsequently brought away the prisoner in a cab, which was strongly escorted..............It is further stated that the inspector was heard to say to one of his subordinates: "Keep this quiet; we have got the right man at last. This is a big thing.”

On his appearance in court, one reported noted....
"He answered to the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat."

This is what I was referring to.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying.

[Batman]

Two and a half years later, where would they begin to look for Hutchinson, or Cox, or Schwartz?
Remember, these three still remain unidentified to us with all our modern assets.

Being unidentified to us doesn't mean they didn't keep track of important witnesses to one of most horrific series of crimes England had ever experienced. I would think Abberline having met Hutchinson wanting to keep tabs on him as a potential suspect. Also, the Whitechapel murder files have been pilfered throughout the ages and other historical important things through WWII destruction.

Also, it seems that a number of these investigators suggest the best witness was a City P.C who saw JtR, at Mitre Sq., which seems to indicate that they were suggesting Lewende (who didn't get a great view) over Hutchinson who apparently looked under him at his face.

Why would JtR murder Kelly knowing he had been ID'd?

[Sam Flynn]

Two and a half years later, where would they begin to look for Hutchinson, or Cox, or Schwartz?
Remember, these three still remain unidentified to us with all our modern assets.

We know for sure who Hutchinson was, or at least I do.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Me too Sam it was Topping, but not many people know that.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

We know for sure who Hutchinson was, or at least I do.

Ok Gareth, I'll grant you that, but it is contested, so it has yet to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Wickerman]

Being unidentified to us doesn't mean they didn't keep track of important witnesses to one of most horrific series of crimes England had ever experienced.

But, to believe that you would have to believe that the police kept tabs on witnesses with no fixed abode. Hutchinson didn't have a home address, he appears to move from lodging-house to lodging-house.
I have never read of such a thing.

Also, it seems that a number of these investigators suggest the best witness was a City P.C who saw JtR, at Mitre Sq., which seems to indicate that they were suggesting Lewende (who didn't get a great view) over Hutchinson who apparently looked under him at his face.

Given that Macnaghten confused the Stride murder with the Mitre-square murder, I think we can guess who the PC was.
Mac. did write that three Jews interrupted the killer as they arrived at the anarchist club - or words to that effect.
Clearly, to my mind he has confused Lawende, Harris & Levy, with Diemschutz.

So who is this PC who saw the killer?

There was only one PC in both cases who we can agree on did see a genuine suspect, that was PC Smith in Berner St.
He's done it again, confused the Berner St. murder with Mitre-square.

It wasn't a City PC, it was a Met PC, and it was in Berner St., not Mitre-square.
The PC who (in Mac's opinion) got a good look at the killer was PC William Smith.

Why would JtR murder Kelly knowing he had been ID'd?

Well, he gave them five weeks to find him. As they couldn't, he may have thought it reasonable to carry on where he left off.

[Batman]

What I meant was, why did JtR murder Kelly if Hutchinson had looked him face to face before and just a few meters from where Kelly was murdered?

Also weren't the press about to track Hutchinson down for interviews?

I find it hard to square Smith with a City PC, or a Jew, and Swanson indicates that they refused to ID a Jew because they themselves were Jewish. Also the Jew being identified was Kozsminki... meaning City PC again, because they were the ones watching him.

Also didn't Abberline basically say that no one saw JtR from the front and just the back and so age wouldn't be able to be determined accurately?

[Wickerman]

What I meant was, why did JtR murder Kelly if Hutchinson had looked him face to face before and just a few meters from where Kelly was murdered?

I have never thought Astrachan was the killer.
I believe Mrs Kennedy who said she saw Kelly outside the Britannia around 3:00am.
Her statement alone would be reasonable justification for Hutchinson being of no further interest to police.

The police certainly did suspect Astrachan to be the killer initially, but for how long is hard to say.

Also weren't the press about to track Hutchinson down for interviews?

I never read that anywhere.

I find it hard to square Smith with a City PC, or a Jew, and Swanson indicates that they refused to ID a Jew because they themselves were Jewish. Also the Jew being identified was Kozsminki... meaning City PC again, because they were the ones watching him.

Also didn't Abberline basically say that no one saw JtR from the front and just the back and so age wouldn't be able to be determined accurately?

We need to keep the various police officials theories separate.
It's clear none of the officials agreed on who JtR was, or whether he died or was incarcerated.

If we can justify assuming Mac. confused the two Double-event murders, then we only have one PC who was known to have seen a genuine suspect, and that was PC Smith. This has nothing to do with Kozminski, that was Swanson/Anderson. Abberline is different again.
Then there is Reid, Arnold, and a handful of others.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-mysteryplay.html

I assume you are familiar with the MM here on Casebook, but the Aberconway version has a few differences and was published in The Ripperologist #124.

http://www.mangodesign.biz/rip124.pdf

It's the Aberconway version where we read "three Jews drove up to the Club...." which tends to indicate Mac. confused the two cases. Therefore the only known PC who did see a genuine suspect was PC Smith, none other.

[Scott Nelson]

If we can justify assuming Mac. confused the two Double-event murders, then we only have one PC who was known to have seen a genuine suspect, and that was PC Smith.

We don't know if Macnaghten confused the two murders. Everything seems ripe with assumptions.