Only one suspect can be shown to have carried a knife.

[MrBarnett]

And the evidence that Thompson was carrying a knife in the East End in the autumn of 1888 is...?

Non existent?

[MrBarnett]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2gGLDun6yjM

[Richard Patterson]

I thought I’ve seen numerous times by posters on here that FT was staying right around the corner from Mary Kelly during the fall of 88, or am I getting my suspects mixed up?

Strange Harp Strange Symphony. The Life of Francis Thompson, by John Walsh 1968. From page 50 of Chapter, ‘The Lone Chorasmian Shore’

“When neither food nor bed was available, he would along with other derelicts, often gravitate to one of the recently established Salvation Army shelters, or the Catholic Refuge in Providence Row. It was the latter place that Thompson supplied, evidently from his own experience, a harrowing picture: “The nightly crowd of haggard men…the anxious waiting while the ticket-holders are slowly admitted; the thrill – the almost shudder – through the crowd when the manager emerges to pick out men for the vacant beds left over after the ticket-holders’ admission. The sickening suspense and fear in all eyes as – choosing a man here and there – he passes along the huddled ranks, the cold clang with which the gates of mercy shut in those fortunate few, but out the rest; and then the hopeless drifting off of the dreary crowd…”

Here Walsh is quoting “Catholics in Darkest England” which appeared in the “Merry England” magazine in 1891. The entire portion, which describes Providence Row, was consequently removed by the Wilfrid Meynell, Thompson’s editor from any future publication of the article. From this excerpt of the article it is unclear that Thompson was one of those admitted or turned away, but that he would 'often gravitate' to it make me think he must have gained admittance once if not more than once.

The Salvation army shelter most probably the one situated in Limehouse. It was in 1888 that the Salvation first opened their two men's shelter. The first in Limehouse, in the East End, the second was opened near the year's end.

[MrBarnett]

Strange Harp Strange Symphony. The Life of Francis Thompson, by John Walsh 1968. From page 50 of Chapter, ‘The Lone Chorasmian Shore’

“When neither food nor bed was available, he would along with other derelicts, often gravitate to one of the recently established Salvation Army shelters, or the Catholic Refuge in Providence Row. It was the latter place that Thompson supplied, evidently from his own experience, a harrowing picture: “The nightly crowd of haggard men…the anxious waiting while the ticket-holders are slowly admitted; the thrill – the almost shudder – through the crowd when the manager emerges to pick out men for the vacant beds left over after the ticket-holders’ admission. The sickening suspense and fear in all eyes as – choosing a man here and there – he passes along the huddled ranks, the cold clang with which the gates of mercy shut in those fortunate few, but out the rest; and then the hopeless drifting off of the dreary crowd…”

Here Walsh is quoting “Catholics in Darkest England” which appeared in the “Merry England” magazine in 1891. The entire portion, which describes Providence Row, was consequently removed by the Wilfrid Meynell, Thompson’s editor from any future publication of the article. From this excerpt of the article it is unclear that Thompson was one of those admitted or turned away, but that he would 'often gravitate' to it make me think he must have gained admittance once if not more than once.

The Salvation army shelter most probably the one situated in Limehouse. It was in 1888 that the Salvation first opened their two men's shelter. The first in Limehouse, in the East End, the second was opened near the year's end.

Richard,

Presumably you have the full text of the 'Merry England' article upon which you base your claim that FT was living in the PR refuge in 1888.

It would be great if you could share it with us.

Gary

[Richard Patterson]

Richard,

Presumably you have the full text of the 'Merry England' article upon which you base your claim that FT was living in the PR refuge in 1888.

It would be great if you could share it with us.

Gary

When I was last in London in November last year, I went to the British library to get a full copy of the article. I ordered it but was told that it would take 48 hours before I could collect it. They said they would email me a notification when it would be available. This was on the 6th day of my 10 day stay for the Jack the Ripper conference. They never emailed me back. I did see the article about a decade earlier, but back then it only took an half-an-hour for the magazine to be brought up from storage. At the time, I did not connect Providence Row with Spitalsfield, thinking, mistakenly, that Providence Row was situated in the West End, its original location. Not knowing it had moved to Crispin Street. If anyone in London would like to make the effort and order the copy and provide a transcript I would be very happy if they shared it here.

I just now tried to see if there was an online digital copy, but had no luck. If anyone reading this would like to take a walk to the British library, perhaps some of the conjecture would be settled.

[MrBarnett]

When I was last in London in November last year, I went to the British library to get a full copy of the article. I ordered it but was told that it would take 48 hours before I could collect it. They said they would email me a notification when it would be available. This was on the 6th day of my 10 day stay for the Jack the Ripper conference. They never emailed me back. I did see the article about a decade earlier, but back then it only took an half-an-hour for the magazine to be brought up from storage. At the time, I did not connect Providence Row with Spitalsfield, thinking, mistakenly, that Providence Row was situated in the West End, its original location. Not knowing it had moved to Crispin Street. If anyone in London would like to make the effort and order the copy and provide a transcript I would be very happy if they shared it here.

I just now tried to see if there was an online digital copy, but had no luck. If anyone reading this would like to take a walk to the British library, perhaps some of the conjecture would be settled.

You're apparently the expert on the subject, why didn't you make the effort to obtain this crucial documemt before you wrote your book or approached your documentary producer?

[Richard Patterson]

What fly to England from Australia to read an article?

[MrBarnett]

When I was last in London in November last year, I went to the British library to get a full copy of the article. I ordered it but was told that it would take 48 hours before I could collect it. They said they would email me a notification when it would be available. This was on the 6th day of my 10 day stay for the Jack the Ripper conference. They never emailed me back. I did see the article about a decade earlier, but back then it only took an half-an-hour for the magazine to be brought up from storage. At the time, I did not connect Providence Row with Spitalsfield, thinking, mistakenly, that Providence Row was situated in the West End, its original location. Not knowing it had moved to Crispin Street. If anyone in London would like to make the effort and order the copy and provide a transcript I would be very happy if they shared it here.

I just now tried to see if there was an online digital copy, but had no luck. If anyone reading this would like to take a walk to the British library, perhaps some of the conjecture would be settled.

Apologies in advance for my pedantry, but PR was never in the West End.

Do you have any idea of what constitutes the West End and the East End?

[MrBarnett]

What fly to England from Australia to read an article?

Too much trouble, no doubt.

[MrBarnett]

It's obviously too much trouble for Richard to research his theory in the northern hemisphere. We should all wish him well in pursuing his suspect without getting out of his armchair.


Blimey, I thought I was replying to a post that seems to have gone AWOL...

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Richard, having not read your book, if I understand correctly, what you have written in your book is that Francis Thompson was staying at the Providence Row Night Refuge, Crispin Street in November 1888. And you argue he was there in November 88' and in November 88' only, to the exclusion of any of the other three winter seasons he was in London 1885, 86' and 87'. And you argue this because it was in May 1888 he met Mr. Meynell, and therefore had the proper reference to obtain admission to the Providence Row Night Refuge when it opened in November for the season. Again correct me if I am wrong. You stated it in this and other threads. And Paul Begg also wrote you made a plausible case about November being the only time he stayed there in his review of your book. And by the way we are all indebted to Paul Begg for the reviews he does in Ripperology magazine. I look forward to them every issue.

I find the idea counter intuitive that Francis Thompson could have stayed at the Providence Row Night Refuge in November 1888 only and in none of the previous three years he was in London. In fact, I find it much more likely his stay there was during one or more of the three entire winter seasons previous to November 1888. At that point in 1888 there were only two months remaining until he was taken away to the monastery in Surrey.

For the simple reason, I ask myself - how in the world did all those hundreds of people who did in fact gain admittance to the night refuge those three years ever manage, against all odds, to do so, when Francis Thompson could not? Did those other people have clout, or especially glowing recommendations, or references from influential people? Did they game the system? How did all those other people succeed in obtaining the coveted ticket? After all, Francis Thompson came to London in 1885 an intelligent young man, son of a doctor from Manchester, a Catholic, a well read and erudite soul whose only failing was his addiction. Surely he could have figured a way to gain admittance to the night refuge along with the others.

Roy

[Richard Patterson]

Hi Richard, having not read your book, if I understand correctly, what you have written in your book is that Francis Thompson was staying at the Providence Row Night Refuge, Crispin Street in November 1888. And you argue he was there in November 88' and in November 88' only, to the exclusion of any of the other three winter seasons he was in London 1885, 86' and 87'. And you argue this because it was in May 1888 he met Mr. Meynell, and therefore had the proper reference to obtain admission to the Providence Row Night Refuge when it opened in November for the season. Again correct me if I am wrong. You stated it in this and other threads. And Paul Begg also wrote you made a plausible case about November being the only time he stayed there in his review of your book. And by the way we are all indebted to Paul Begg for the reviews he does in Ripperology magazine. I look forward to them every issue.

I find the idea counter intuitive that Francis Thompson could have stayed at the Providence Row Night Refuge in November 1888 only and in none of the previous three years he was in London. In fact, I find it much more likely his stay there was during one or more of the three entire winter seasons previous to November 1888. At that point in 1888 there were only two months remaining until he was taken away to the monastery in Surrey.

For the simple reason, I ask myself - how in the world did all those hundreds of people who did in fact gain admittance to the night refuge those three years ever manage, against all odds, to do so, when Francis Thompson could not? Did those other people have clout, or especially glowing recommendations, or references from influential people? Did they game the system? How did all those other people succeed in obtaining the coveted ticket? After all, Francis Thompson came to London in 1885 an intelligent young man, son of a doctor from Manchester, a Catholic, a well read and erudite soul whose only failing was his addiction. Surely he could have figured a way to gain admittance to the night refuge along with the others.

Roy

Hi Roy,

Thompson may have been able to stay at the Row prior to November 1888, but he would have needed to 'trick' his way in, since he could not have gained a reference. The only time he could have entered and stay at Providence Row, without resorting to deception, would have been in November 1888. If Thompson stayed at the Row before 1888, and possibly also during 1888, then this would only serve to secure his association with the area of the murders. It would even lend credibility that he may have encountered Mary Kelly, who is thought to have also stayed at the Refuge. As it stands, though I have to conclude that he stayed in November 1888, simply because I have nothing to show that Thompson used his intelligence for deceit. If I could show Thompson he did, it would only be to my advantage regarding my claim that he might have been Jack the Ripper.

[Roy Corduroy]

I don't think it required deceit on his part. Just as it didn't require deceit on the part of the hundreds of others who successfully passed the test. They got references. He got references. Street people have all day to meet and talk to others. To find along their way kind souls who will vouch for them such as a recommendation to a shelter. It's nothing out of the ordinary.

That's why I asked the rhetorical question - how in the world did all the others get in, but not him, until he magically met Meynell. It doesn't ring true.

Your original argument, the one in your book. That is what I don't agree with because common sense tells me it didn't work that way.

You say he could not have gotten references. Why would you say that? How about all the others. They got references. Why not him. Somethings not adding up here. He is different from everyone else? That doesn't make any sense what you said - he could not have gotten references.

Roy

[Richard Patterson]

Roy,

This refuge was different to others, the reference had to come from an employer. Those who attended this refuge, even if many were turned away, all needed references to show that they had gainful employment. These references were checked. This is something that Thompson could only supply twice. The first time was in 1886, when he worked for a short time in Haymarket for a shoemaker, but then the shoemaker arranged lodgings for him. The only other time was when his editor paid him for his articles, but that was not till around June of 1888 and the Refuge opened in November.

[Roy Corduroy]

It's deja vu all over again

click here - http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=378599

You and Barnett had this entire conversation last year with different results. Be sure to read the very last sentence on the page

Roy