Just my theory.

[Pontius2000]

The C5 murders bear the same MO with escalating violence. To me, this pretty much points to:

1. A single killer who was severely schizophrenic. For evidence of this, it's helpful to research other known schizophrenic serial killers. The perfect starting point would be Richard Chase aka The Vampire of Sacremento.

2. Because of the severity of the schizophrenia and the wanton style of the attacks, the killer got away by sheer luck rather than planning. This kind of killer, because of the nature of their illness, is just as likely to be caught in the act as to get away. Sheer dumb luck just happened to work in JtR's favor. The Stride and Nichols murder show how lucky JtR was...Stride was not mutilated at all and Nichols was killed in the street but not evicerated. This seems to indicate that JtR was interrupted two out of 5 times. If there had been any outdoor murders after Mary Kelly, it's very likely that he WOULD have been caught in the act.

3. Because of the escalation of violence and the severity of mental illness on display, it would be unheard of that JtR would have simply stopped after Mary Kelly. This seems to indicate that after Kelly, JtR was either A. Incarcerated (in jail or asylum), B. Dead, or C. Trailed so closely by police that he knew he was being watched and could not act out his impulses.

So no matter what kind of elaborate theories and conspiracies we try to convince ourselves of in this case, the two most obvious of the known suspects are and will always be Kosminski and Druitt. We can be fairly certain that Kosminski was indeed schizophrenic. It is also most likely that he was the suspect trailed closely by police after the Kelly killing, and it's also likely that he was the Jewish suspect identified by the Jewish witness. He was also permanently incarcerated from 1891 onward. About Druitt, even less is known. But we do know that Druitt had severe mental illness (though depression-suicide and schizophrenia don't necessarily go hand in hand) and there was at least SOME circumstantial suspicion, possibly a confession to a priest, and that he died at roughly the right time.

So yeah, all those elaborate theories...princes, masons, writers, artists, killer duos, Jill the ripper, etc are certainly romantic and fun. But the most realistic suspects that meet all the known evidence hallmarks are Kosminski, Druitt, or some unknown person very much like Kosminski or Druitt

[Mike J. G.]

The C5 murders bear the same MO with escalating violence. To me, this pretty much points to:

1. A single killer who was severely schizophrenic. For evidence of this, it's helpful to research other known schizophrenic serial killers. The perfect starting point would be Richard Chase aka The Vampire of Sacremento.

2. Because of the severity of the schizophrenia and the wanton style of the attacks, the killer got away by sheer luck rather than planning. This kind of killer, because of the nature of their illness, is just as likely to be caught in the act as to get away. Sheer dumb luck just happened to work in JtR's favor. The Stride and Nichols murder show how lucky JtR was...Stride was not mutilated at all and Nichols was killed in the street but not evicerated. This seems to indicate that JtR was interrupted two out of 5 times. If there had been any outdoor murders after Mary Kelly, it's very likely that he WOULD have been caught in the act.

3. Because of the escalation of violence and the severity of mental illness on display, it would be unheard of that JtR would have simply stopped after Mary Kelly. This seems to indicate that after Kelly, JtR was either A. Incarcerated (in jail or asylum), B. Dead, or C. Trailed so closely by police that he knew he was being watched and could not act out his impulses.

So no matter what kind of elaborate theories and conspiracies we try to convince ourselves of in this case, the two most obvious of the known suspects are and will always be Kosminski and Druitt. We can be fairly certain that Kosminski was indeed schizophrenic. It is also most likely that he was the suspect trailed closely by police after the Kelly killing, and it's also likely that he was the Jewish suspect identified by the Jewish witness. He was also permanently incarcerated from 1891 onward. About Druitt, even less is known. But we do know that Druitt had severe mental illness (though depression-suicide and schizophrenia don't necessarily go hand in hand) and there was at least SOME circumstantial suspicion, possibly a confession to a priest, and that he died at roughly the right time.

So yeah, all those elaborate theories...princes, masons, writers, artists, killer duos, Jill the ripper, etc are certainly romantic and fun. But the most realistic suspects that meet all the known evidence hallmarks are Kosminski, Druitt, or some unknown person very much like Kosminski or Druitt

I just can't really see the killer, if it was just a single person, being a schizophrenic.

There's just too many indications that they were making plans.

Stride isn't a definite victim, imo, and what of the rest of the murders before and after?

Nothing is concrete in the case, so I find it hard to attribute all of the murders to one man, never mind have the confidence to state that he was severally mentally ill, and due to him knowing the times of the beats, escape routes, not being seen after the murders, it's hard to attribute such things to dumb luck.

I think a mentally ill person would more than likely find themselves wandering the streets prior to the murders, finding themselves in a more risky situation as far as the police and the public are concerned.

Whoever committed these murders, if it was just a single person, would have to have had a place to go to, to lay low and clean up, and to be aware of where he was and how he was going to get away, as well as being aware, even partially, of the police and their beats.

It's hard to attribute that to sheer dumb luck and a mentally ill person.

We can't truly say for sure that the murders did cease with Kelly, the issue is that we're simply following the media's version of the series, as opposed to looking into whether their version actually reflects what was happening, and I'm not 100% sure that it does.

The torsos are troubling if we subscribe to the C5, and the other murders of Tabram, Coles, etc.

There's just far too many uncertainties for anyone to be certain of anything, imho. This is simply a crime, or a series of crimes, that will go unproven due to a total lack of proper information and evidence.

[Callmebill]

Duffy was the first serialist in Britain to be profiled. I agree with you. Overwhelming someone is about technique. Duffy had established technique. He was small. Accurately determined by the profiler. Duffy was short- although the shoe-print was a logical indicator of his size. The profiler missed the most important detail. He didn't work alone.

[Callmebill]

That's it. The killings didn't stop with Kelly. They fizzled out or changed. Look at Clay-pipe Alice. Similar wounds were inflicted -- but timidly.

[Callmebill]

I think he's a psychopath. Not ill. Just a different make up from the norm.

[Pontius2000]

I just can't really see the killer, if it was just a single person, being a schizophrenic.

There's just too many indications that they were making plans.

Stride isn't a definite victim, imo, and what of the rest of the murders before and after?

Nothing is concrete in the case, so I find it hard to attribute all of the murders to one man, never mind have the confidence to state that he was severally mentally ill, and due to him knowing the times of the beats, escape routes, not being seen after the murders, it's hard to attribute such things to dumb luck.

I think a mentally ill person would more than likely find themselves wandering the streets prior to the murders, finding themselves in a more risky situation as far as the police and the public are concerned.

Whoever committed these murders, if it was just a single person, would have to have had a place to go to, to lay low and clean up, and to be aware of where he was and how he was going to get away, as well as being aware, even partially, of the police and their beats.

It's hard to attribute that to sheer dumb luck and a mentally ill person.

We can't truly say for sure that the murders did cease with Kelly, the issue is that we're simply following the media's version of the series, as opposed to looking into whether their version actually reflects what was happening, and I'm not 100% sure that it does.

The torsos are troubling if we subscribe to the C5, and the other murders of Tabram, Coles, etc.

There's just far too many uncertainties for anyone to be certain of anything, imho. This is simply a crime, or a series of crimes, that will go unproven due to a total lack of proper information and evidence.

I've read dozens of books and thousands of pages on casebook and I've yet to see any evidence that there was an elaborate plan. If by "planned", you mean he went looking for the easiest prey and got them to a secluded location to kill, yes that's a plan. Otherwise, there was no more of a plan than any other seriously ill kill like a Richard Chase.

As for the C5 being killed by the same man, they all bore the same MO and the people who were there and examined the bodies were in mostly agreement as to who the actual ripper victims were. That trumps both our personal opinions. Despite the bad reputation of Whitechapel, murder against random victims was actually pretty rare in the Victorian era. So for 2 prostitutes to die of slashed throats within an hour and less than a mile of each other would've been an event more rare than a solar eclipse. Especially considering that the person who found Stride arrived in a (noisy) horse drawn buggy while the body was still warm. It, followed by the eddowes murder, bears all the hallmarks of an interrupted crime followed by a completed crime. You are free to not believe Stride was a JtR victim all you want. But I'm free to say it would take a major suspension of disbelief to believe otherwise.

If you believe Kelly was not the final JtR victim, then what do you feel were his further murders? And if you believe he may have de-escalated the violence in later murders (i.e., changed his MO), please point me to even one serial killer in history who was as violent as JtR that suddenly made an about face and changed their MO.

As for the non-C5, the modern opinion is that Tabram may have been an early JtR victim. And she may well have been. But from what I've been able to read, the contemporary opinion was that the most likely non-C5 JtR victim was Frances Coles. If she were a JtR victim, it would conveniently knock Druitt and Kosminski out of the running. But it doesn't help her case that the last person she was known to be with was a somewhat violent drunk man with a legitimate motive to kill her.

[Pontius2000]

I think he's a psychopath. Not ill. Just a different make up from the norm.

I'd say he was certainly psychopathic. That doesn't remotely exclude him from having a serious mental illness. The crimes absolutely bear the hallmarks of serious mental illness. I say schizophrenia, but it could be any number of things like bipolar, borderline personality, some kind of antisocial personality disorder, etc.

But put it this way...

Roughly 1% of the population are schizophrenic, making it rare. They are mostly not dangerous at all.

Roughly 20% of the population have psychopathic personalities, making it "somewhat" rare. But they are mostly not dangerous either.

But an even smaller percentage of psychopathic personalities ARE dangerous. And a very small percentage of schizophrenics ARE dangerous.

Now if you take that very rare dangerous schozophrenic and combine it with the very rare psychopath that is "dangerous psychopath", then you have a very rare bird indeed. And that very rare bird has the potential for explosive violence. Like the kind of violence JtR committed.

JtR was a rare bird, but he wasn't necessarily "one of a kind" either. There have been many known serial killers who've had multiple illnesses and personality defects that combined for exceptional violence

[Mike J. G.]

I've read dozens of books and thousands of pages on casebook and I've yet to see any evidence that there was an elaborate plan. If by "planned", you mean he went looking for the easiest prey and got them to a secluded location to kill, yes that's a plan. Otherwise, there was no more of a plan than any other seriously ill kill like a Richard Chase.

As for the C5 being killed by the same man, they all bore the same MO and the people who were there and examined the bodies were in mostly agreement as to who the actual ripper victims were. That trumps both our personal opinions. Despite the bad reputation of Whitechapel, murder against random victims was actually pretty rare in the Victorian era. So for 2 prostitutes to die of slashed throats within an hour and less than a mile of each other would've been an event more rare than a solar eclipse. Especially considering that the person who found Stride arrived in a (noisy) horse drawn buggy while the body was still warm. It, followed by the eddowes murder, bears all the hallmarks of an interrupted crime followed by a completed crime. You are free to not believe Stride was a JtR victim all you want. But I'm free to say it would take a major suspension of disbelief to believe otherwise.

If you believe Kelly was not the final JtR victim, then what do you feel were his further murders? And if you believe he may have de-escalated the violence in later murders (i.e., changed his MO), please point me to even one serial killer in history who was as violent as JtR that suddenly made an about face and changed their MO.

As for the non-C5, the modern opinion is that Tabram may have been an early JtR victim. And she may well have been. But from what I've been able to read, the contemporary opinion was that the most likely non-C5 JtR victim was Frances Coles. If she were a JtR victim, it would conveniently knock Druitt and Kosminski out of the running. But it doesn't help her case that the last person she was known to be with was a somewhat violent drunk man with a legitimate motive to kill her.

I briefly went into the certain things that I was talking about with regards to a killer making plans:

He obviously had to have had a place to go, somewhere local, in which to lay low and clean up. He had to know where this place was and how to get there from where he was.

He had to get to that place from the murder-site without being seen by witnesses, including the police.

He had to know of the beat-times, because it's odd to suggest he just did his "work" randomly and wasn't caught due to casual dumb-luck. There's just no reason to assume that he did everything on a whim and got away with it.

There's more probability that these were pre-planned killings to an extent, in that he located his victim, made sure he was alone with her, and had enough time to do what he needed before fleeing to his safe-house.

In order to gain the trust of the victim, he'd have had to have been at least approachable and mild-mannered enough so as not to alert the victim of anything untoward, and I honestly just don't see that happening if he were a raving lunatic.

From what we can tell, he must've gained the trust of the victims in order to have them be comfortable enough to turn their back. There was no screaming, which would indicate that nothing was out of place in the eyes of the victims before the "blitz" attack.

I don't really see how an unorganized lunatic could possibly just "luck out" on being alone, not startling the victims and scaring them away, making good his escape and not alerting anyone while he did it.

It just doesn't gel with what we know, imho.

I don't consider the murdering of two women by cut throat as being rarer than a solar eclipse, seeing as murder was not that uncommon, and a lot of them didn't make the record books, certainly domestic killings.

There obviously were other killers about, because we already know that there were other murders, unless you subscribe to the notion that this madman did it all. The more murders you apply to a madman running on dumb-luck, the less and less it makes any kind of logical sense that he'd get away with it.

The very fact that there is some evidence to suggest a knowledge of anatomy doesn't lend credence to the idea of a "lucky" madman, either.

It just doesn't gel, for me, anyway.

[Harry D]

It's also worth noting that schizophrenic killers like Richard Chase & Robert Napper were never caught in the act, either, which was more or less the only way the police were going to get the killer in 1888.

[Pontius2000]

I briefly went into the certain things that I was talking about with regards to a killer making plans:

He obviously had to have had a place to go, somewhere local, in which to lay low and clean up. He had to know where this place was and how to get there from where he was.

He had to get to that place from the murder-site without being seen by witnesses, including the police.

He had to know of the beat-times, because it's odd to suggest he just did his "work" randomly and wasn't caught due to casual dumb-luck. There's just no reason to assume that he did everything on a whim and got away with it.

There's more probability that these were pre-planned killings to an extent, in that he located his victim, made sure he was alone with her, and had enough time to do what he needed before fleeing to his safe-house.

In order to gain the trust of the victim, he'd have had to have been at least approachable and mild-mannered enough so as not to alert the victim of anything untoward, and I honestly just don't see that happening if he were a raving lunatic.

From what we can tell, he must've gained the trust of the victims in order to have them be comfortable enough to turn their back. There was no screaming, which would indicate that nothing was out of place in the eyes of the victims before the "blitz" attack.

I don't really see how an unorganized lunatic could possibly just "luck out" on being alone, not startling the victims and scaring them away, making good his escape and not alerting anyone while he did it.

It just doesn't gel with what we know, imho.

I don't consider the murdering of two women by cut throat as being rarer than a solar eclipse, seeing as murder was not that uncommon, and a lot of them didn't make the record books, certainly domestic killings.

There obviously were other killers about, because we already know that there were other murders, unless you subscribe to the notion that this madman did it all. The more murders you apply to a madman running on dumb-luck, the less and less it makes any kind of logical sense that he'd get away with it.

The very fact that there is some evidence to suggest a knowledge of anatomy doesn't lend credence to the idea of a "lucky" madman, either.

It just doesn't gel, for me, anyway.

I don't see having a home vs being homeless as necessarily "having a plan" to clean up afterwards.

Of course he knew the way home after his crimes. That's knowing the streets. Knowing the area you live in isn't exclusive to sane or mentally ill people. As far as being seen, he was doubtlessly seen by dozens, if not hundreds, of people. The problem is that they had no idea they were looking at JtR. And the ones who did...like Lawende, Schwartz, Hutchinson, etc only realized it after the fact. Are you suggesting he should've been seen because he'd have been covered in blood? There's no evidence for this as pretty much all the attending physicians agreed that he killed the women from behind, meaning the gush of blood would've gone away from him. There's nothing to support that he'd have had any blood on him other than maybe his hands, which can be stuck in his pockets. So none of this points to a plan either. At least not a plan that couldn't be carried out by a severely mentally ill person.

As for "gaining the trust" of the victims, it doesn't take much to gain the trust of someone who doesn't even have the means to lay their head down on a pillow, or get their next strong fix. He wasn't salivating at the mouth, or have horns growing from him head. He wasn't wearing a sticker that said "Hello my name is: Jack the Ripper". It doesn't take much of a plan to gain the trust of someone who is desperate. A seriously mentally ill person can very easily "appear" outwardly normal.

You don't believe 2 same MO killings on the same night within a mile of each other was more rare than an eclipse? Did you live in Victorian era London? Random murders WERE rare. 2 random murders, same MO, same night, within a mile, and within an hour would have been exceptionally rare. If you don't agree, then please point to a similar event occurring in London between 1978-1898 other than the double event. And don't bring up domestic murders, because these were not domestic murders.

I don't know what evidence you have that the killer had any anatomical knowledge at all, but that would be an opinion, not a fact. I've never taken any medical class or even gutted a wild animal, but if I had an opened body in front of me, I could identify all the major internal organs. I could easily decapitate/dismember a body just knowing the basic layout/locations of joints and the spine. I certainly don't have any that would pass for "knowledge of anatomy".

[Pontius2000]

It's also worth noting that schizophrenic killers like Richard Chase & Robert Napper were never caught in the act, either, which was more or less the only way the police were going to get the killer in 1888.

Very true. And Chase was about as careless and wanton as a serial killer could possibly be. His final crime was interrupted by a 6 year old. Yet as mentally ill as he obviously was, he was still "with it" enough to know that if he stockpiled all his prison medication over a period of time, he could kill himself. People seem to that someone like JtR would either be perfectly sane or totally insane. Even the most maniacal people have moments of lucidity where they present as somewhat normal. Hell, that's pretty much the textbook definition of "manic disorders"

[Mike J. G.]

I don't see having a home vs being homeless as necessarily "having a plan" to clean up afterwards.

Of course he knew the way home after his crimes. That's knowing the streets. Knowing the area you live in isn't exclusive to sane or mentally ill people. As far as being seen, he was doubtlessly seen by dozens, if not hundreds, of people. The problem is that they had no idea they were looking at JtR. And the ones who did...like Lawende, Schwartz, Hutchinson, etc only realized it after the fact. Are you suggesting he should've been seen because he'd have been covered in blood? There's no evidence for this as pretty much all the attending physicians agreed that he killed the women from behind, meaning the gush of blood would've gone away from him. There's nothing to support that he'd have had any blood on him other than maybe his hands, which can be stuck in his pockets. So none of this points to a plan either. At least not a plan that couldn't be carried out by a severely mentally ill person.

As for "gaining the trust" of the victims, it doesn't take much to gain the trust of someone who doesn't even have the means to lay their head down on a pillow, or get their next strong fix. He wasn't salivating at the mouth, or have horns growing from him head. He wasn't wearing a sticker that said "Hello my name is: Jack the Ripper". It doesn't take much of a plan to gain the trust of someone who is desperate. A seriously mentally ill person can very easily "appear" outwardly normal.

You don't believe 2 same MO killings on the same night within a mile of each other was more rare than an eclipse? Did you live in Victorian era London? Random murders WERE rare. 2 random murders, same MO, same night, within a mile, and within an hour would have been exceptionally rare. If you don't agree, then please point to a similar event occurring in London between 1978-1898 other than the double event. And don't bring up domestic murders, because these were not domestic murders.

I don't know what evidence you have that the killer had any anatomical knowledge at all, but that would be an opinion, not a fact. I've never taken any medical class or even gutted a wild animal, but if I had an opened body in front of me, I could identify all the major internal organs. I could easily decapitate/dismember a body just knowing the basic layout/locations of joints and the spine. I certainly don't have any that would pass for "knowledge of anatomy".

That's not necessarily what I was getting at. My points re: him having a place to go show that he's obviously thought about where he's going to go in relation to where his bolthole is, and he obviously is aware of how to get back there relatively easily, seeing as this seems to be what he did. He was obviously aware of his surroundings enough to know where he was, where he had to get to, and how he was going to get there.

I don't think he was just some maniacal bloke running about finding women, killing them and running off into the night. Everything we know seems to suggest that this person was well-aware of his surroundings, the streets and alleys. To be aware of his surroundings shows that he was calculated enough to know where to go and when to go there.

I'd disagree, as there are many cases of people suffering from schizophrenia and being arrested after an episode and generally being found wandering around in a daze. There was a case here in Liverpool a few years back, in Wavertree, IRRC, where a schizophrenic man was shot by police while carrying a samurai sword, in a complete daze, not knowing where he was.

The fact that this person was nowhere to be seen implies that he did his deed and got out of there, which to me, doesn't lend credence to him being mentally "out of it", if you will.

I'm not sure if he was seen by dozens if not hundreds, and it really depends which murder we're discussing, as the murder of Nichols took place with not a great many people about, according to some of the witnesses. I don't doubt he was seen at some point, but I do doubt that a man who was schizophrenic would manage to avoid looking sketchy after a brutal murder, I mean, he'd obviously be covered in blood, unless he cleaned himself or had a change of clothes, which would imply that he was planning more than you'd give him credit for.

I think there's a strong chance he would be covered in blood, at least from the post-mortem wounds he inflicted, he'd have to have some blood or fluid on him.

The fact that he attacked from behind shows that he knew what he was doing, which for me, again rules out a wild man running on sheer luck. The very manner in which he killed implies a methodology of sorts.

You make out like he'd have no issue gaining anyone's trust, but even the FBI's notion was that he was likely actively seeking to gain trust from his victims, and helpless though the victims were, I don't think they were stupid to the extent that they'd go off with literally anyone.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen a schizophrenic having an episode, but it's very apparent that something is very wrong with the person, and I don't think a man having an episode would be a great deal of use in trying to lure in a prostitute. He wouldn't need horns, as his literal behaviour would be off from the get-go, and it's a wonder if he could actually articulate a sensible enough sentence, never mind the rest.

I have to disagree, having seen and worked with people who have schizophrenia, I can tell you that they do not appear outwardly normal when suffering an episode. Unless you're implying that this man was functional, in which case I don't see the need to entertain the thought in the first place that he was anything other than warped.

Well, I clearly didn't live in London in 1888, but neither did you, so I'm not sure what your point is. Something you seem to overlook is that there were other murders that were not attributed to "Jack". So there was very likely, unless you believe it to be the work of the same person, more than one killer operating in the same place at the same time. The gang activity alone was rife, and policemen wore heavy collars for the main reason that cut-throats were a very real problem.

Let's not pretend that the C5 were the only murders in and around London at that time. Do we know that it was the same MO with Stride? For sure? Most researchers cannot agree on Stride, so it's not concrete enough to say for certain, but I don't rule it out.

It has been suggested that in order to remove the organs in the manner that he did, that he'd have to at least have some knowledge of anatomy, and this was agreed upon by many of the medicos of the time, so I'm not really sure why you're acting like it's some startling new theory I've come up with.

I'm also not sure why you talk about my theories as opinions, as though yours are facts, when it's all quite obviously opinion. If you believe Kosminski was the killer, or Druitt, then you kind of have to subscribe to the lunatic theory, whereas I do not have a preferred suspect.

You say they weren't domestic murders, but it has been suggested by many that Stride, and possibly even Kelly, could've easily been a domestic murder in the style of the "Ripper", so again, you're confusing facts and opinions.

I'm sorry, but when you talk about you being able to remove organs and know what to do if a body were to be laid open in front of you is pretty nonsensical. To have accessed the organs in the manner that he did, in the time that he did, implies that he wasn't merely "winging it."

What we know from the opinions obtained from the people of the time, it seems unlikely that he was a simple lunatic running on dumb luck, and that he was at least savvy enough to know what he was about.

In terms of fact versus opinion, you seem to be going on opinion a lot and acting as though it's fact, which is odd.

[Mike J. G.]

It's also worth noting that schizophrenic killers like Richard Chase & Robert Napper were never caught in the act, either, which was more or less the only way the police were going to get the killer in 1888.

There's weren't very similar crimes, though, were they?

There's nothing about the JtR crimes or the torso murders that would make me presume that the killer was a schizo running on blind rage and dumb luck. Considering what we know and what they knew back then, it just doesn't gel for me.

For the people who subscribe to Kosminski or Druitt, it kind of has to gel.

[Pontius2000]

That's not necessarily what I was getting at. My points re: him having a place to go show that he's obviously thought about where he's going to go in relation to where his bolthole is, and he obviously is aware of how to get back there relatively easily, seeing as this seems to be what he did. He was obviously aware of his surroundings enough to know where he was, where he had to get to, and how he was going to get there.

I don't think he was just some maniacal bloke running about finding women, killing them and running off into the night. Everything we know seems to suggest that this person was well-aware of his surroundings, the streets and alleys. To be aware of his surroundings shows that he was calculated enough to know where to go and when to go there. [\

I'd disagree, as there are many cases of people suffering from schizophrenia and being arrested after an episode and generally being found wandering around in a daze. There was a case here in Liverpool a few years back, in Wavertree, IRRC, where a schizophrenic man was shot by police while carrying a samurai sword, in a complete daze, not knowing where he was.

The fact that this person was nowhere to be seen implies that he did his deed and got out of there, which to me, doesn't lend credence to him being mentally "out of it", if you will.

I'm not sure if he was seen by dozens if not hundreds, and it really depends which murder we're discussing, as the murder of Nichols took place with not a great many people about, according to some of the witnesses. I don't doubt he was seen at some point, but I do doubt that a man who was schizophrenic would manage to avoid looking sketchy after a brutal murder, I mean, he'd obviously be covered in blood, unless he cleaned himself or had a change of clothes, which would imply that he was planning more than you'd give him credit for.

I think there's a strong chance he would be covered in blood, at least from the post-mortem wounds he inflicted, he'd have to have some blood or fluid on him.

The fact that he attacked from behind shows that he knew what he was doing, which for me, again rules out a wild man running on sheer luck. The very manner in which he killed implies a methodology of sorts.

You make out like he'd have no issue gaining anyone's trust, but even the FBI's notion was that he was likely actively seeking to gain trust from his victims, and helpless though the victims were, I don't think they were stupid to the extent that they'd go off with literally anyone.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen a schizophrenic having an episode, but it's very apparent that something is very wrong with the person, and I don't think a man having an episode would be a great deal of use in trying to lure in a prostitute. He wouldn't need horns, as his literal behaviour would be off from the get-go, and it's a wonder if he could actually articulate a sensible enough sentence, never mind the rest.

I have to disagree, having seen and worked with people who have schizophrenia, I can tell you that they do not appear outwardly normal when suffering an episode. Unless you're implying that this man was functional, in which case I don't see the need to entertain the thought in the first place that he was anything other than warped.

Well, I clearly didn't live in London in 1888, but neither did you, so I'm not sure what your point is. Something you seem to overlook is that there were other murders that were not attributed to "Jack". So there was very likely, unless you believe it to be the work of the same person, more than one killer operating in the same place at the same time. The gang activity alone was rife, and policemen wore heavy collars for the main reason that cut-throats were a very real problem.

Let's not pretend that the C5 were the only murders in and around London at that time. Do we know that it was the same MO with Stride? For sure? Most researchers cannot agree on Stride, so it's not concrete enough to say for certain, but I don't rule it out.

It has been suggested that in order to remove the organs in the manner that he did, that he'd have to at least have some knowledge of anatomy, and this was agreed upon by many of the medicos of the time, so I'm not really sure why you're acting like it's some startling new theory I've come up with.

I'm also not sure why you talk about my theories as opinions, as though yours are facts, when it's all quite obviously opinion. If you believe Kosminski was the killer, or Druitt, then you kind of have to subscribe to the lunatic theory, whereas I do not have a preferred suspect.

You say they weren't domestic murders, but it has been suggested by many that Stride, and possibly even Kelly, could've easily been a domestic murder in the style of the "Ripper", so again, you're confusing facts and opinions.

I'm sorry, but when you talk about you being able to remove organs and know what to do if a body were to be laid open in front of you is pretty nonsensical. To have accessed the organs in the manner that he did, in the time that he did, implies that he wasn't merely "winging it."

What we know from the opinions obtained from the people of the time, it seems unlikely that he was a simple lunatic running on dumb luck, and that he was at least savvy enough to know what he was about.

In terms of fact versus opinion, you seem to be going on opinion a lot and acting as though it's fact, which is odd.

There have been many cases of serial killers who were certifiably insane who were well enough of their surroundings to not get caught in the act. Going back to Richard Chase, he believed the government was turning his blood to powder. He mutilated one woman, went into her yard and collected dog feces to stuff in her mouth. Then at his last murder/mutilation, he fled from the scene when a 6 year old knocked at the door. So are you suggesting that he was NOT insane because he was aware enough to flee the scene to avoid detection?? You seem to be under the impression that the only way JtR could've been seriously mentally ill is if he was found roaming the streets like a stereotypical "raving lunatic". The study of known serial killers doesn't bear that out at all. Even contemporary police who knew next to nothing about mental illness compared to what we now know were in pretty much universal agreement that they'd never have got a death sentence on JtR even if they'd caught him.

If you've worked with schizophrenics and other mentally ill people, then you understand that schizophrenia and bipolar are defined by times of lucidity and outbreaks of mania, right? And you're also aware that there may be no one more manipulative than a mentally ill person. There is no reason to believe that a schizophrenic psychopath wouldn't be able to commit these crimes. Because we know for fact that there have been many many mentally ill, including schizophrenic, serial killers.

I didn't say that murders never happened. What I said that by today's standards, random murders were rare in Victorian era London. That's not even an opinion, that's a fact. Murders were not overly common even in the biggest city in the world, and most of them were domestic murders. Random murders were NOT common, the year 1888 was an outlier not a typical year. But again, if these same MO "double events" were as common as you suggest please provide the proof. 1878-1898 is a 20 year period, shouldn't be hard to find them if they happened.

Do we know Stride's murder was the same MO? Um yes, we sure do...a prostitute killed in a dark corner/alley from behind by a right handed killer with a hard slash to the throat. Yes, that is literally the same MO as all the JtR victims (except Kelly was possibly killed from the front since she was lying on a bed)

Why is it nonsensical to think me, or any other random person, could identify internal organs and remove some in a frenzy? Do you have any evidence that JtR was after SPECIFIC organs? In one case he took a uterus. In another, I believe it was only a section of a uterus and a kidney. In Kelly's case, he took the heart. So yes, any person who could stomach it could open up a body and take random organs in a frenzy. In all likelihood, he was looking for something that looked cookable and edible, which further points to a serious mental illness.

When you say the opinions of the people of the time don't indicate they thought JtR was a lunatic, whose opinions are you talking about specifically? Because the main players like Anderson, macnaghten, Swanson, Littlechild, etc etc never agreed on much but they all pretty well roundly agreed that JtR was insane and there would never be a death sentence passed.

[Pontius2000]

There's weren't very similar crimes, though, were they?

There's nothing about the JtR crimes or the torso murders that would make me presume that the killer was a schizo running on blind rage and dumb luck. Considering what we know and what they knew back then, it just doesn't gel for me.

For the people who subscribe to Kosminski or Druitt, it kind of has to gel.

There's never going to be a real carbon copy MO amongst serial killers. But by and large, yes, there crimes were very similar. The connection of the insane serial killer being doing things that don't make logical sense. For instance...Chase stuffs dog feces down a victim's throat...JtR cuts off a victim's breast and puts it under her head like a pillow. These actions aren't "the same", but they ARE "the same" in that they are the illogical actions of an insane killer.